So why are the crafter relics.. bad.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Oh really? I never would have known in my 8+ years of playing, thank you for such an eye-opening and informative statement. (/s) - Regardless of whether the progression is rendered moot in the long-term scheme of things, this does not matter nor does it detract from the satisfaction that one might have in achieving an objective, this has by far got to be one of the most reductive arguments I've quite possibly seen in a while, most especially when you don't seem to take the common courtesy of reading the post.

The argument was never whether these were needed, just whether the reward and the requirement therein would match, most especially for something that is known to be a relic. At the very least a better tool than pentamelded, that is what a progressive system is meant to be, which is what the relic system is at its core.

No, my argument is not built on the assumption that every player uses macro crafts. It is built on the fact that absolutely everyone can craft the recipes required for the relic with drastically under-tuned stats that otherwise wouldn't be possible with even Pactmaker, or the more appropriate Indagator gear. If you feel insistent that this is not the case then I am more than happy to provide you with some evidence showing that it is otherwise possible without BiS, or pentameld.

Furthermore, I never disputed otherwise. My only dispute with respect to this was that if people wish for a tool that is measurably better than Indagator gear then more effort should be required to obtain such, either through an iterative/progressive system or through a more outright stringent grind to do so. Not that people should not have the tool in the first place. So how about you stop, read the posts, and then think, re-read them again, and then think, then reply in the future?

You once again fail horribly at making any actual sense in your arguments. Time and time again, people have pointed out the point of relics as a means for catch up progression for the general audience, which is the entire point. It's the same thing with how weapon relics are handled, except in this case probably a lot more useful considering weapon upgrades are dropped within every patch while crafter/gatherer upgrades get dropped every other patch. With Indigator being the last set we get till 7.0 and guess how many patches we have left before then? You also fail to realize we'll be getting more recipes later with bigger demands in craft and quality demands. By next patch, Indigator tools will be worthless since the relics will exceed its stats and have better bonuses.

Seriously cant wait to see you make a fool of yourself again by 6.4 when you'll obviously make another thread like this still trying to defend this point.

[DiaDeem]

My only dispute with respect to this was that if people wish for a tool that is measurably better than Indagator gear then more effort should be required to obtain such

If it's anything like the Skybuilder Tools, the final step will require a Master Recipe. That's why I never finished my Needle, because I just didn't have the gear/skill for it. Even then, someone had to make me a custom macro to finish the Level 500 tool. I think I was on Blue Gear at the time?... Which I think we'll still get a set of in EW, though only Left side (no accesories), and won't be as good as a Penta'd Indagator set.

Point in case: These are gonna get harder and harder to make.

[Kaurhz]

If it's anything like the Skybuilder Tools, the final step will require a Master Recipe. That's why I never finished my Needle, because I just didn't have the gear/skill for it. Even then, someone had to make me a custom macro to finish the Level 500 tool. I think I was on Blue Gear at the time?... Which I think we'll still get a set of in EW, though only Left side (no accesories), and won't be as good as a Penta'd Indagator set.

Point in case: These are gonna get harder and harder to make.

Yeah, that is usually the case, the relics were designed in a way that would allow you to craft them with relatively low entry point stats, with the aim of eventually progressing towards an i510 relic which was released with 5.45, so we're likely to see the conclusion with the Crystalline tools occur with 6.45, which will allow them to also release the next set of blessed/resplendent tools with 6.55. I would expect the subsequent stages to use expert recipes in some form or fashion.

That much is granted, and this is a system I agree with. Progressive wherein you eventually get a tool 'exceeding', as opposed to just outright exceeding upon the first stage. with an equal difficulty progression system to accommodate.

You once again fail horribly at making any actual sense in your arguments. Time and time again, people have pointed out the point of relics as a means for catch up progression for the general audience, which is the entire point. It's the same thing with how weapon relics are handled, except in this case probably a lot more useful considering weapon upgrades are dropped within every patch while crafter/gatherer upgrades get dropped every other patch. With Indigator being the last set we get till 7.0 and guess how many patches we have left before then? You also fail to realize we'll be getting more recipes later with bigger demands in craft and quality demands. By next patch, Indigator tools will be worthless since the relics will exceed its stats and have better bonuses.

Seriously cant wait to see you make a fool of yourself again by 6.4 when you'll obviously make another thread like this still trying to defend this point.

I have never disputed that they aren't, my only dispute, again, is that tools exceeding Indagator need more of a progression behind them before they are better either through subsequent steps, e.g., a progressive system, something which I have iterated several times to be the case. I have never said that the tools aren't viewed as catch-up nor progression for the general audience just that the difficulty of them would not match what should be expected of something to exceed pentamelded gear.

If multiple sentences are difficult for you, which they seem to be... - I think the relic system is fine as is, however, I think it is too early and the requirements don't necessarily appropriately match the reward, currently to provide tools that exceed the current crafted with pentamelds.

FYI you're incorrect regarding Indagator being the final set we get between now and 7.0, .4 patches have always included a scrip counterpart which has historically been the catch-up gear, and the gear that also branches people between expansions on a budget. This gear will also most likely be 630.

I personally can't wait to see what a fool of yourself when you come to the realization that:
1 - I and the person who started this thread are not the same people, and I disagreed with their underlying point.
2 - You seem to be replying to me, yet don't actually read the posts, presume some nonsense that isn't even stated nor eluded to, and then proceed to double down on it without reading, whilst subsequently trying to be condescending.

But here's a throwback for you - I don't actually expect you to come to the realization of Point #2. Primarily because you don't actually seem to be interested in reading or trying to dissect the point. Don't worry though, you won't see me I can assure you, mainly because you've drastically misunderstood my posts and come to several incorrect conclusions regarding my posts.

[Gemina]

If you consider that to be an espect of crafting, then maybe that's it, but I don't, because I am talking the exact process of crafting, the exact process of knowing which buttons to pick from, personally, I don't find joy in that, it's predictable and dull, but I do find joy in finishing my own crafts, which I don't consider the same as enjoying crafting, macros allow you to skip the process of crafting, while keeping all other benefits of crafting, which I enjoy.

I also crafted every single one of my Indagator pieces myself, I got Perfectionist gear as a stepping stone by using my Custom Deliveries to get Purple Scrips, set up timers to gather every item, every last item got myself, I also did not do a single manual craft in the entire process, because I was doing that at level 70-ish for other things, and it was miserable, I would be substantially happier if crafting in XIV was like in other games where you just hit a button and it goes off on its own, but I still feel accomplished by going through the process of managing my items and gathering my resources, but going through a repeated, dull minigame over and over to get my things? nah I will do without.

OK. Now it is more clear. See, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and not lump you in with a set of players who want to reap the rewards with crafting using minimal effort.

It would seem that by providing you with an example of how I find crafting fulfilling, you were able to let me know that you derive a sense of accomplishment through gathering your own materials to craft your wares which you personally use in the game. This has absolutely nothing to do with gil. The game's currency as you well know, is worthless. You cannot take any of it with you when log out of the game. There has to be something else; something of substance that you take with you that would have you use a term like, "a means to an end." Even more so when considering you pay real money and use your own time to play FFXIV.

I enjoyed this little back a forth, and thanks for taking the time to explain.

[Jamini]

Most people will tell you the best way bar none to make money is to become a crafter.

While crafting is a good way to make money, it absolutely is not the "best" way to make money. Anyone who says this in a vacuum is ignorant.

[VeyaAkemi]

While crafting is a good way to make money, it absolutely is not the "best" way to make money. Anyone who says this in a vacuum is ignorant.

It's 100% something I heard repeatedly when I started, along with "Don't do Crafting on free trial it's nearly impossible", which also turned out to be wrong in my opinion, it is entirely possible they meant "best" with a number of different qualifiers, maybe it's the best time investiment because it's something that once it's set up it's perpetually yours, short of new gear/expansion releasing, so you can fairly quickly get back into it after a break, maybe it's the "best" relative to time invested, but it still gets repeated extremely often.

[Jamini]

It's 100% something I heard repeatedly when I started, along with "Don't do Crafting on free trial it's nearly impossible", which also turned out to be wrong in my opinion, it is entirely possible they meant "best" with a number of different qualifiers, maybe it's the best time investiment because it's something that once it's set up it's perpetually yours, short of new gear/expansion releasing, so you can fairly quickly get back into it after a break, maybe it's the "best" relative to time invested, but it still gets repeated extremely often.

Looking at your second comment, I I don't think either of us should be surprised that the first comment also was made in error.

The key to wealth is always finding a niche that you can exploit and the ability to get those wares to market. Some of the most consistent moneymakers are tomestone materials, scrip materials, gardening materials, anything that is annoying to farm (leathers, uncommon mounts, items from Eureka etc), or simply an unexploited market (one good example was the housing market after the new wards...and likely the housing market once the current lotteries end since demolition was enabled again.) Even GC turnin rewards (coke and such) are fairly reliable money as Free Companies have an endless need of such things.

Crafting just gives you more options. With the sheer number of existing omnicrafters making substantial money is very difficult by crafting alone. You need to be smart, lucky, and do your homework if you want to get ahead. Always have.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Yeah, that is usually the case, the relics were designed in a way that would allow you to craft them with relatively low entry point stats, with the aim of eventually progressing towards an i510 relic which was released with 5.45, so we're likely to see the conclusion with the Crystalline tools occur with 6.45, which will allow them to also release the next set of blessed/resplendent tools with 6.55. I would expect the subsequent stages to use expert recipes in some form or fashion.

That much is granted, and this is a system I agree with. Progressive wherein you eventually get a tool 'exceeding', as opposed to just outright exceeding upon the first stage. with an equal difficulty progression system to accommodate.




I have never disputed that they aren't, my only dispute, again, is that tools exceeding Indagator need more of a progression behind them before they are better either through subsequent steps, e.g., a progressive system, something which I have iterated several times to be the case. I have never said that the tools aren't viewed as catch-up nor progression for the general audience just that the difficulty of them would not match what should be expected of something to exceed pentamelded gear.

If multiple sentences are difficult for you, which they seem to be... - I think the relic system is fine as is, however, I think it is too early and the requirements don't necessarily appropriately match the reward, currently to provide tools that exceed the current crafted with pentamelds.

FYI you're incorrect regarding Indagator being the final set we get between now and 7.0, .4 patches have always included a scrip counterpart which has historically been the catch-up gear, and the gear that also branches people between expansions on a budget. This gear will also most likely be 630.

I personally can't wait to see what a fool of yourself when you come to the realization that:
1 - I and the person who started this thread are not the same people, and I disagreed with their underlying point.
2 - You seem to be replying to me, yet don't actually read the posts, presume some nonsense that isn't even stated nor eluded to, and then proceed to double down on it without reading, whilst subsequently trying to be condescending.

But here's a throwback for you - I don't actually expect you to come to the realization of Point #2. Primarily because you don't actually seem to be interested in reading or trying to dissect the point. Don't worry though, you won't see me I can assure you, mainly because you've drastically misunderstood my posts and come to several incorrect conclusions regarding my posts.

What you're arguing is what already is going to be provided in the next patches. We are just starting the crafter relics. So I seriously dont know what the hell is your problem.

[Gemina]

Crafting just gives you more options. With the sheer number of existing omnicrafters making substantial money is very difficult by crafting alone. You need to be smart, lucky, and do your homework if you want to get ahead. Always have.

100% correct and I would even argue that crafting and selling finished goods is one of the worst ways to make money in this game. The market is saturated with this stuff, and while you can typically sell these goods for a decent chunk of change, due to the market being so overflooded with competitors, you typically (on average) sale that item for around 65-80% of your original asking price by the time it sells. Not to mention that you constantly have to check your retainers as these items are cut within minutes of each other.

A genuine benefit to crafting is self-sufficiency. Being able to fuel and sustain your own needs in the game is a very powerful tool to have as it exempts you from the MB sharks out there who are always looking to exploit the convenience most players seek.

[TaleraRistain]

If it's anything like the Skybuilder Tools, the final step will require a Master Recipe. That's why I never finished my Needle, because I just didn't have the gear/skill for it. Even then, someone had to make me a custom macro to finish the Level 500 tool. I think I was on Blue Gear at the time?... Which I think we'll still get a set of in EW, though only Left side (no accesories), and won't be as good as a Penta'd Indagator set.

Point in case: These are gonna get harder and harder to make.

Another good point. And since we're required to use these to craft the items, they may be baking in an effect that helps with that.

We also don't know what potential changes might happen with crafting in the future. Could they perhaps make this effect more beneficial in normal recipes in the next expansion? I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility. So we may find ourselves very glad we put in the time to get them. And if not, they're still going to be nice glams. And it's nice that the Splendorous Tools weren't a one-off and crafting and gathering are getting these relic quests with stories instead of the system in ARR.