A summary of healer issues

[Renathras]

One of the four choices for 'new covenant skills' for Warrior in Shadowlands was 'Condemn', which was 'Execute, but you can use it on the first 20% of the boss as well as the last 20%', and replaced Execute on the bar. People loved it. Saying 'oh this new thing wouldnt be treated as a new thing because it replaces the old thing on the bars' is hilariously disingenuous.

I know in your heart of hearts, you want to attack and insult me and my intentions as your knee-jerk first reaction to literally every post I make...but actually read my post again.

I wasn't saying that such changes would be bad. I was saying that they wouldn't be adding a "new ability". If someone checks "Add new DPS ability to WHM", they probably aren't thinking "...and that new ability is an upgrade to an existing ability". Most are thinking something like Aero 3/Banish, another DoT, another GCD, etc. They aren't thinking "Glare IV". Glare IV would technically be a new ability. Glare x4 = Empowered Holy would be a new Trait. But as neither would add anything "new" to the Job, people like you would clearly not be satisfied with them or count them as "adding a new damage ability", would they? Would you? If all WHM got was Misery upgrades into Purgtion and Glare III upgrades to Glare IV and Dia upgrades to Dia II, would you be like "Yup, WHM just got three new abilities, I'm good"?

Maybe don't be so quick to attack someone for saying something you probably actually agree with.

What gameplay mechanics do healers have? How many skills interact with those internal mechanics?

Hm, WHM has Lilies, several heals that translate into an attack. Temperance boosts all other heals (an interaction). Plenary interacts with Rapture, Medica, Medica 2, and Cure 3. Thin Air interacts with any MP ability. Swiftcast interacts with any cast time spell. Asylum boosts all other heals (an interaction, like Temperance). Presence of Mind speeds all cast time spells.

SCH has a ton. Dissipation interacts with AF (by generating 3 of them) and GCD heals (by boosting them) and Eos (by dismissing her) and Faerie abilities (by disabling them). Aetherflow interacts with the four heals and one damage aiblity using it, and using each generates Faerie Gauge, which interacts with Aetherpact. Seraph interacts with several Faerie abilities by disabling them, and enables Confession. Fey Illumination interacts with all heals, both yours and allies', cast spells. Chain Strategem interacts with all your direct damage spells (and those of your allies). Emergency Tactics interacts with Succor and Adlo. Deployment Tactics interacts with Adlo. Recitation interacts with Adlo, Succor, Indominability, or Excogitation. Protraction interacts with all heals by boosting them on the target (yours, theirs, and anyone else's). ...they may be clunky and fighting with each other a lot, but SCH's kit definitely has a lot of interactions.

SGE has a similar story going with its various healing boost spells interacting with each other. Kardia interacts with literally every one of your attack spells, and thus so does Soteria. Eukrasia interacts with Dosis, Diagnosis, and Prognosis. Zoe interacts with both the normal and Eukrasia Diagnosis and Prognosis as well as Pneuma. Rhizomata generates an Addersgall, which thus interacts with Kerachole, Taurochole, Ixiochole, and Durochole, which also generate MP regeneration, thus interacting with all your MP costing spells via MP management. Krasis interacts with all healing ACTIONS, meaning it interacts with abilities they use themselves as well as any abilities you or your co-healer use on them. Eukrasia Diagnosis and Prognosis interact with Toxicon/Addersting when they break. They also interact with Pepsis. Physis II boosts all of your healing actions and thus interacts with all of your healing actions. And arguably Holos and Kerachole/Taurochole interact in the sense you can stack them together (but not Kerachole with Taurochole).

So...lots of interactions there.

I guess this comes down more to how you define an interaction. If you define it as "in any way connects to, generates, or modifies another ability", my lists above - which are far more extensive than yours? - would be accurate.


-Scholar gets Aetherflow every minute: You get 3 charges to spend on oGCD Healing, Mitigation or Damage. Spending those charges fills a bar that can be spent on single target healing. You get Lustrate, Indomitability, Excogitation, Sacred Soil, Energy Drain, Aetherflow and Aetherpact: 7 skills out of 31 (Not counting pet skills)

-Sage generates 1 Addersgall charge every 20s you can spend on oGCD Healing or Mitigation. When Eukrasian Prognosis/Diagnosis breaks you get Addersting which you can use on Toxikon. (Movement tech or else DPS loss) You get Kerachole, Taurochole, Ixiochole, Druochole, Eukrasian Prognosis/Diagnosis and Toxikon: 7 skills out of 28.

-Astrologian gets a charge of Draw every 30s. That gets MP back and you get a seal. Get 3 seals and you can use Astrodyne to recover MP, cast faster and deal or heal more damage. And Augmented Benefic. You get uhhh....Draw, Redraw and Astrodyne. Nothing else interacts with Astrodyne. Three skills out of 30.

-White Mage generates 1 Lily ever 20s you can spend on free GDC Healing. Use three lilies and you get access to get DPS neutral GCD damage. Oh and Freecure I guess.
You get Afflatus Rapture, Afflatus something and Afflatus Misery. Three skills out of 24.[/QUOTE]

That's just his go to form of deflection. He has no counter argument so he'll wave it away as an attack because he can't accept being wrong, even when he's very clearly in the wrong.

This is why I hate dealing with people like you - I LITERALLY PRESENTED THE COUNTER ARGUMENT. I didn't wave it away at at all and am not "very clearly" in the wrong. I literally offered a direct counter argument. And in the other thread, I did the same thing MULTIPLE TIMES. You can't just outright lie about people.

I mean, you can - and here you get a bunch of upvotes for it - but you probably shouldn't. Of course, you went even further.

Note that once I pointed out how they were behaving (and how I didn't act that way), they all stopped doing it because, I guess, everyone realized just how bad they were acting. No apologies or admissions of being wrong, mind you, but the thread effectively died and moved onto a different topic.

Which is the bias question and even your responses to some people's opinion was leading them towards an answer that you agree with.

BULL-shite.

I didn't "lead" anyone to anything. In a lot of cases, I directly restated their positions just to make sure I had them correct/could put them in the correct category on the results. I didn't "lead" anyone to anything. God, you're horrible.

Also, SPEAKING of lying...

The long and biased one that you made you mean because those questions are loaded heavily to fit your narrative more than anything else.

Hm, what's that you said? "those questions"?

Not "that question". Not "That fourth question". THOSE questions. As in MORE THAN ONE. The questions which weren't "heavily loaded", they were neutral in tone, after using Ty's INITIALLY heavily loaded questions - that I'm sure you'd have agreed with as he wrote them, since they'd have fit YOUR narrative more than anything else. Now you're saying "I only meant the FOURTH question!"

But hey, I'm not going to attack you. I have a better idea.

I need to take notes on some of these smackdowns

You're welcome?

The irony being even you (originally) realized it was a mistake in good faith. Then you went nuts about a 0.5% difference because I didn't pull out a calculator, but it's whatever.

I'm going to pull my punches a bit on this one, but feel free to take those notes on the smackdown I just laid out.

For my part, though, I don't like laying down smackdowns. But when someone's going to make direct personal attacks - and admit that is their intention - to attack and slander wantonly, and to lie through their teeth to do it, all while doing the very thing they're attacking me for AND attacking me so they don't have to admit to it?

I honestly just don't want to deal with people who are that vicious, but if that's the type of person they want to be, I guess that's on them. And anyone who supports them, but meh. It's whatever. You folks do you, I guess.

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Honestly, it's almost impossible to have an actual conversation because of how many people don't want to.

I can sit here and talk with Ty, and we can have conversations about Job ideas, statistics, all good.

Then someone else will bust in here and call me names, get TONS of likes for what amounts to a personal attack, most of which are unfounded and many of which are outright slander, and just destroy the entire conversation. And feel vindicated because of you guys supporting them and saying stuff like you did.

But it's obvious by now the goal has become to destroy productive conversations - or any conversations that aren't "make healers into dpsers". It's ridiculous at this point.

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For the record, since this is such an amazing sticking point:

I WAS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 Tank + 3 DPS can clear the average 4 men A WHOLE TWO MINUTES faster!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone get it? I can say the same thing again and again anytime anyone asks about it. TWO. WHOOOOOLE minutes!!!!

Doesn't matter what thread, right? 5 years from now, we can be talking about the new Healer Job and someone will say "But you know, Ren was wrong about TWO. WHOLE. MINUTES!!!"

I don't give a damn anymore. If that's the kind of people you want to be, go for it. I'll just continue to be a better person than that, as previously noted (and multiple times) where I've found people making a mistake and didn't hold it against them. Because that's what decent and mature people acting in good faith do. If I'm alone in this, meh. I don't need other people to do right to give me a reason to do right. I'm just going to try not engaging with people who really don't want to have good faith discussions and are looking for any reason possible to avoid it.

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And you know what the worst part is? What's really messed up about it?

If anyone was doing this kind of thing to any of you - even with me disagreeing - I'd defend you and ask them to stop. I wouldn't be liking and upvoting, I wouldn't be encouraging it. I'd say "Hey, look, let's stick to making arguments and presenting our cases" or the like. I don't LIKE being in fights with people all the time, and I HATE bullying/dogpiling and oppose it as a matter of course.

I guess I'm alone in actually wanting good faith discussions and defending people being brigaded, though. A pity...

[Sebazy]

The irony being even you (originally) realized it was a mistake in good faith. Then you went nuts about a 0.5% difference because I didn't pull out a calculator, but it's whatever.

I did the math for you, a quick glance at something like https://goodcalculators.com/time-percentage-calculator/ would have verified it. I jumped on you for consistently trying to downplay the margin of error to defend your point. Something you are still doing right here it seems. And it was a 7% difference FYI

For my part, though, I don't like laying down smackdowns. But when someone's going to make direct personal attacks - and admit that is their intention - to attack and slander wantonly, and to lie through their teeth to do it, all while doing the very thing they're attacking me for AND attacking me so they don't have to admit to it?

I'm not the one fudging figures and stretching truths sir, please see above. If I come wading in with an opinion, it'll either have a very loud and clear IMO attached or I'll go above and beyond to back it up with figures. I'll merrily have a conversation with anyone even if I don't agree with them.

I'm more than merry to discuss and theory craft all day long even if I don't agree. Where I draw the line is needlessly dismissing ideas that don't suit your agenda because 'insert buzzword here'. Building a theory and then trying to find statistics that appear to match it is also pretty likely to get me calling you out too.

I've made plenty of bold calls and predictions over the years here, I've been wrong for more than a handful of them. The difference between us it seems is that I'm more than willing to hold my hands up to my mistakes and learn from them. It would seem that you are not.