A summary of healer issues

[AmiableApkallu]

Oh I forgot about Disspation. That puts Scholar and Sage quite ahead of the other two in terms of interactivity within their respective kits. Still only around 1/3 of the abilities interact in someway with their respective job gauges for the two Shield healers. The proportion is much lower for the other two healers.

Considering how much the filler kit is used in proportion to the other side of the kit, it would stand to reason that the job gauges affect the basic attack and heal spells directly, rather than exist as this tacked on thing.

So, when I think of "interactivity", I think of something different -- I think of Black Mage. In normal mode content, even as a casual, it's possible to end up in various recognizable "failure" states. For example:

• You greed in Astral Fire a bit too much, the timer drops to zero, and all of a sudden, you realize you're at zero MP and can't easily get into Umbral Ice.
• You transition from Umbral Ice to Astral Fire, only to notice that you forgot about Umbral Hearts.
• You got distracted by mechanics and let Enochian drop right before generating a Polyglot stack.

There's this definite feeling that it matters what buttons get pushed when and which order. Which is to say, there's some sort of interaction happening, even if it's not always literally "push this button to modify this other button."

In that same normal mode content, I can't say I feel the same for White Mage or Scholar. (I don't touch Sage or Astrologian, so I won't comment on them.) There are no real failure states that come to mind.* And beyond that...

I routinely forget that Fey Union exists, so it makes no difference to me that there are buttons that feed the fairy gauge. Dissipation just feels bad to me, which means I don't push it, so asking whether it interacts with my kit is like asking whether a tree falling in a forest with no around makes a sound. When (or if) I push Temperance and Plenery Indulgence generally feels irrelevant. There's nothing to make me feel bad about overcapping on lillies.

*True, when I push Swiftcast and Thin Air matters, but it's always before Raise, and this is so rote that it fails to register as a "real" interaction.

[Sebazy]

What was so impossibly complex and cluttery about DPS actions on healers that they had to be removed when the Healing downtime became even more prevalent?

My best guess is that Yoshida routinely commented in the past that he wanted to reduce the gap between top and bottom tier players. In this regard, the removal of Cleric stance was a resounding success and Stormblood watering down SCH was also fairly effective even if part of it had to be walked back. ShB was just a repeat of 4.0's initial SCH murder, but across the board and this time they stuck to their guns.

[Sebazy]

No worries if you're not interested, but I'd love to get your thoughts on the Sage rework concept I posted on the previous page here.

Apologies but I've not touched Sadge due to a lack of willpower to level more healers to 90. I'm not keen on wading into the finer details of the job when I've not sat down and given it a fair shake first++

[ty_taurus]

Dyskrasia

Dyskrasia itself still has 2 charges with a 15 second cooldown, so if you're storing your Phlegmas for burst windows, then Edema usage will eat those charges so you don't have to burn Toxikon or Anamnesis to do so. If you aren't storing Phelgmas for burst windows, you're probably not concerned with squeezing Somnia and Anathema for that missing damage anyway. Edema is also 20 potency higher than Somnia and Anathema, so there's no point in trying to burn a Dyskrasia stack on them before using Phelgma during buff windows because you'll lose a charge on Edema. The point of Edema, Somnia, and Anathema having 1 second cooldowns is just to emphasize that you can double up on them through charges if needed, though this is really just for Edema.

Proto-Pneuma/Pneuma

True on Minor Arcana, but I'm talking about updating the UI so that the issues it currently faces are no longer issues. The idea though is that if you don't use Pneuma by the time the cooldown of Proto-Pneuma ends, you just lose that opportunity to cast Pneuma unlike how Lord/Lady just stays there until used. Proto-Pneuma must be on cooldown to use Pneuma, otherwise Proto-Pneuma takes priority. We can just readjust it to a different button, but I do believe just fixing the way that information is displayed resolves the problem and keeps the action condensed. I'd do the same with separating the damage and healing aspects of Assize so you can deal the Assize damage and then use the healing when it's needed, rather than storing 2 charges to burn on buff windows, otherwise invaliding the purpose of trying to put charges on Assize in the first place, but that's a different story.

Edema Animation

This was more along the lines of what I was thinking:



But something like that could be used for another animation as well. I actually think that would be a great choice for Katarrh's animation.

EDIT: This is what your image made me think of... this enemy attack from FF8. Is that accurate?

Also, I imagined Anathema, the Toxikon follow up, would be Kerachole's animation, but purple with the nouliths firing lasers that bounce around the inside of the bubble to communicate the damage being dealt, and Paroxysm would reuse Toxikon I's animation, and regular Toxikon would just be Toxikon II's animation. Polydipsia (which means excessive thirst as a references to getting more healing out of Kardia) would be a water laser that would look something like this animation from an old Yugioh game. Somnia would have the nouliths surround the main target and emit some kind of vibration attack similar to Heaven's Cataract from FFX-2. Bia I imagine would be an augmented take on the current Dyskrasia AoE on a much larger scale where lasers rain down into those rainbow puddles.

Apologies but I've not touched Sadge due to a lack of willpower to level more healers to 90. I'm not keen on wading into the finer details of the job when I've not sat down and given it a fair shake first++

No problem. I think you have a strong sense of good game design, so was curious if you'd share some thoughts, but I can respect not having the patience for the healers right now. I don't blame you.

[ty_taurus]

My best guess is that Yoshida routinely commented in the past that he wanted to reduce the gap between top and bottom tier players. In this regard, the removal of Cleric stance was a resounding success and Stormblood watering down SCH was also fairly effective even if part of it had to be walked back. ShB was just a repeat of 4.0's initial SCH murder, but across the board and this time they stuck to their guns.

This scene from Sword in the Stone is how I perceive the changes from HW to SB to ShB to EW.

In this clip, the design team is the sugar tin, and the sugar itself is the simplifying of job mechanics. What we needed was what Arthur gets, a couple scoops of sugar, and SB was more like getting a 3rd scoop... a little too sweet, but not overpowering. What we got is Merlin's cup. We hit an acceptable level of sweetness years ago, but they continue to pour spoonful after spoonful of sugar, only we're screaming "when!" and they aren't stopping adding sugar to the cup. They seem to be on a crusade trying to eliminate anything that even sounds like it threatens the idea of accessibility, but I firmly believe if we instead tried to find that 2-3 spoonfuls of sugar 'goldilocks zone of simplicity' the game would still be extremely accessible, but without continuously alienating more and more veteran players/expert players who find that there tea has become undrinkable. Maybe it'd be a little sweeter than some might like, but it wouldn't be downright unpalatable.

[ForsakenRoe]

EDIT: This is what your image made me think of... this enemy attack from FF8. Is that accurate?

Also, I imagined Anathema, the Toxikon follow up, would be Kerachole's animation, but purple with the nouliths firing lasers that bounce around the inside of the bubble to communicate the damage being dealt, and Paroxysm would reuse Toxikon I's animation, and regular Toxikon would just be Toxikon II's animation. Polydipsia (which means excessive thirst as a references to getting more healing out of Kardia) would be a water laser that would look something like this animation from an old Yugioh game. Somnia would have the nouliths surround the main target and emit some kind of vibration attack similar to Heaven's Cataract from FFX-2. Bia I imagine would be an augmented take on the current Dyskrasia AoE on a much larger scale where lasers rain down into those rainbow puddles.

That's pretty much along the lines of what I was after, yeh. I had watched this video last night, so this timestamped part is probably why I have the thought. As for the 'vibration' animation, I think you're onto something, have the four nouliths embed themselves into the enemy one at a time and then once all four are in position, they all do the pulse effect. Really sell the idea that, rather than a long range laser attack, they get in close because vibration doesn't travel so well through air. Thinking of like, the effect of if you play one single strong bass note through a speaker with water or something on it, the shockwave you see caused by that pulsing out from the noulith/speaker, despite the source of the force not actually moving all that much, you know? Can't find a video to illustrate it's all just 'healing frequencies' meditation stuff

[ty_taurus]

That's pretty much along the lines of what I was after, yeh. I had watched this video last night, so this timestamped part is probably why I have the thought. As for the 'vibration' animation, I think you're onto something, have the four nouliths embed themselves into the enemy one at a time and then once all four are in position, they all do the pulse effect. Really sell the idea that, rather than a long range laser attack, they get in close because vibration doesn't travel so well through air. Thinking of like, the effect of if you play one single strong bass note through a speaker with water or something on it, the shockwave you see caused by that pulsing out from the noulith/speaker, despite the source of the force not actually moving all that much, you know? Can't find a video to illustrate it's all just 'healing frequencies' meditation stuff

This is another possible direction for the Somnia vibrations: Ultra Waves in FF8. Redirect the waves from emanating outward to the nouliths surrounding the area and targeting them inward.

[Renathras]

...

You know what? Just no, madam.

The point stands - I would defend you if people were brigading you, not revel in it. And if you were wrong about something, but had an argument you were right on some point, I would hear you out. This does happen in here from time to time where there are cases I catch people being wrong about something, but they do make a good argument for how they're not completely wrong, and I'm willing to accept that. There are also cases where opposing people are both partly right at the same time.

Indeed, I've admitted to being wrong in cases that I am on the points that I am. I try to research points well in general if I'm going to stake a firm position to them, however, so that it doesn't often occur. There are things that are arguments of scale - as that argument was - but I'm not going to continue arguing the point, which I said so the last time. The only reason it's even been mentioned here is because someone who lied about me got caught in their lie and was desperate for a smokescreen. But suffice to say, in that other thread, I DID admit that I was wrong, and I even made a total of 4 edits to get the wrongness SUFFICIENTLY PRECISE to satisfy other people, something I wouldn't have bothered with at all if I was unwilling to do so.

It would be one thing if I had said "No! You're wrong! ForbiddenFruitLogosOnlineGaugeSite says it's this party comp so it is!", that would have been refusing to admit being wrong. I straight up said I saw what you meant and that you were (at the time) being very reasonable and fair about it, and made the initial edit pointing out I was wrong and giving a ballpark estimate of how much.

It was only after that - oddly, AFTER my admission of being wrong - that you and others really pounced.

...and you wonder why people are unwilling to admit they're wrong; when they do in good faith, they're pilloried after having done so. Again, something I DO NOT DO to people because I don't want people to be afraid of admitting they were wrong about some detail or thing, or that they were partially wrong about it.

Several people are just wanting something to use as a cudgel in lieu of an argument, something I myself do not do when the situation is reversed.

Again, if you wish to support that, that's your decision. Not only would I not, I do not in the situations this has come up where I wasn't on the receiving end of it.

In any case, did we ever get an actual reason for the great action prunning of ShB? Didn't Yoshi-P insist somewhere that they didn't want to take away things that the jobs could do, when asked about nerfing PLD Hallowed Ground?

What was so impossibly complex and cluttery about DPS actions on healers that they had to be removed when the Healing downtime became even more prevalent?

I think at the time it had to do with a healer shortage and concerns over disparate DPS outcomes. The thinking from the Devs was something like players were leaving the Healing role because they feared not being able to deal enough damage while also healing, and that the Devs were concerned about the DPS gaps between the Healer Jobs. So they figured if they could slim them down to basically nothing, it would make the DPS part stress free (in theory attracting healxiety sufferers to the role) and make the Jobs easier to balance.

Or something to that effect.

Whether it worked or not is debatable, but that was the objective.

Point is that...

Yes yes yes: Which is why I gave specific examples and asked if those things would be "new" to you or not.

If Misery became Purgation - same damage scaled as 4 Glares but now with more Stun and a party HoT - or if casting 4 Glares gave you a super-charged Holy to cast; those were specific examples of me saying if those things were what we got in an expansion, would YOU consider them "new"?

We're not talking about WoW's Warrior and Executes. I gave you two concrete examples of things WHM could get in FFXIV and asked you if you, personally, would classify them as "new DPS buttons" or "more DPS buttons" or not. The former case would be a new ability, but would take the spot of an existing one and not alter the rotation, the latter would have no new abilities at all, but a new stacking self-buff that led to an actual change in the rotation. Would YOU, personally, consider either of those cases as a new DPS action/ability or not?

This isn't some convoluted gotcha. I'm trying to determine what you would and would not consider "new". Glare IV would obviously be new, but as you note, if it was just higher potency and a new graphic, it wouldn't change the rotation. Well, Purgation might be that, but the Stun and HoT MIGHT make you consider it as different, but might not. Hence I have to ask you and see what your answer is, as I typically do not read minds. And likewise, the empowered Holy thing WOULD change the rotation and break up the Glarespam, but would add no new buttons or abilities (in the spellbook) at all. Hence again I have to ask you to see what your answer is. As I did ask you. To see what, in your own words, your answer would be.

And it wasn't an attack. If you thought it was, that says more about you than it does me, I think

Ah, yes, when you call someone making a good faith argument "hilariously disingenuous"...oh, wait, yeah, that's kind of an attack. And it's an attack on the person, not their argument. Not only that, this is yet another desperate attempt - what is it with you guys today? - to sell the narrative "Ren accuses everyone of attacking him!!". Which is amusing because I don't accuse a lot of people of attacking me, and I make arguments even in the cases I do level such accusations, so I'm not using them in lieu of argument or to deflect from not having one.

Maybe don't call people names and they won't say you're attacking them?

This scene from Sword in the Stone is how I perceive the changes from HW to SB to ShB to EW.

In this clip, the design team is the sugar tin, and the sugar itself is the simplifying of job mechanics. What we needed was what Arthur gets, a couple scoops of sugar, and SB was more like getting a 3rd scoop... a little too sweet, but not overpowering. What we got is Merlin's cup. We hit an acceptable level of sweetness years ago, but they continue to pour spoonful after spoonful of sugar, only we're screaming "when!" and they aren't stopping adding sugar to the cup. They seem to be on a crusade trying to eliminate anything that even sounds like it threatens the idea of accessibility, but I firmly believe if we instead tried to find that 2-3 spoonfuls of sugar 'goldilocks zone of simplicity' the game would still be extremely accessible, but without continuously alienating more and more veteran players/expert players who find that there tea has become undrinkable. Maybe it'd be a little sweeter than some might like, but it wouldn't be downright unpalatable.

The irony to me is that if their goal is to make things totally accessible, they've gone completely the wrong way about it.

While I do agree Cleric was a cancer and some of the DPS kits were probably a bit more than they should be, the most confusing thing for new healers that I've noticed is that they don't know the difference between GCDs and oGCDs, as the game doesn't explain it at all. The convoluted way some actions work with other actions or not ("healing actions" vs "healing magic" boosting effects, for example), is another one.

It's weird they leave those things in that are unintuitive, that the game doesn't explain, and that make a MASSIVE difference in the output of the player - if you follow ABC and weave oGCDs instead of casting them stand alone as if they were separate abilities, you already will easily get a Blue or better in general content like 4 mans or 24 mans where you're being compared against the whole player base; not to mention DoTs, which are something that new/average players often let fall off and forget to refresh, or worse, spam multiple times - while supposedly trying to make things more accommodating and accessible.

Also, since this is apparently a point of thing now:

I don't know why you chose to take this as an attack. It really wasn't.

What makes you think I took it as an attack? I never said I took it as one (a certain SOMEONE'S insistence to the contrary). I'm not even sure why you thought I took it as an attack. I said "Ugh, HOWEVER, so we can ruin this otherwise feel good moment..." not "There you go again, attacking me". I wasn't accusing you of making an attack. I just was enjoying your SGE proposal and then saw you say that and was curious why you were going that line of argument instead.

I never said it was an attack nor that I felt it was an attack (because I didn't think or feel either), I only said it was just ruining an otherwise feel good moment.

[ty_taurus]

You know, originally I thought it would be hard to conceptualize more different types of attacks for Sage that aren't just more of the same lasers over and over, but scrolling through that FF8 video, there are really great animations where you could take inspiration...

Some Examples:
Link A
Link B
Link C
Link D (Similiar to the other example of a water beam)
Link E

Just to name a few. There's also quite a few different takes on vibration attacks as well. This one's nice and flashy, and the sound effects in this one are kinda fun.

[Sebazy]

This scene from Sword in the Stone is how I perceive the changes from HW to SB to ShB to EW.

Agreed, I like the analogy.

In a way, ShB's rip-roaring success that was a number of different factors all hitting at a perfect time is something that's going to come back to haunt them in the long term. It's a odd but all too common trend for large JP corporations to get weirdly arrogant and complacent almost to the point of treating customers, competitors and partners all with equal levels of contempt. Shimano's road cycling division are a great example of this in recent years but Honda also spring to mind as well.

In recent years it genuinely feels like Yoshida's team are falling into that trap also. FFXIV 1.0 forced Yoshida's team to take a humble and earnest approach, they were a lot more transparent with their plans and they weren't afraid to back down on bad decisions. Early ARR Warrior was a great example of them realising that they were wrong and promptly taking steps to correct things. Now it feels like they aren't interested in what the community has to think. They have their plan and they are sticking to it come hell or high water. Yoshida seems to look more and more miserable these days when he gets collared with a tough question over his teams design choices.

And honestly, it's not so much that I have a strong sense of good game design, I was an optimisation and performance guru first and world builder second rather than systems designer in my time in the industry. Rather I quickly learned that the bean counters in finance were the true development leads, not any of us on the top floor.