Why is DRG's design considered one of the best?

[CelestiCer]

Reworks are by and large a function of player complaints around 'job difficulty'. The less a job's players try to leverage supposed 'job difficulty' to claim that they are automatically entitled to a dps advantage over others, the less likely the job is to get a simplifying rework. It's actually in everyone's benefit in the long run to advocate for a level playing field rather than trying to score short term advantages over other jobs.

I disagree? Square implements simplifications/hollowing out of Jobs whenever and however the hell they want regardless of Player-Feedback. Then if you desire any lost difficulty/complexity from your Job? Remember, we were told to " Just go play Ultimate " and " Give us your feedback ", that will get ignored.

As of SHB up towards EW present, plenty players of Jobs that received simplifications did not request to be changed or simplified even advocating to not do that. Majority also didn't complain about Job performances based on how finger-breaking their Jobs difficulty is more so then advocating for fairness, that's different. DRG is the next DPS in line and I believe they generally aren't complaining vs desiring Fairness, QOL changes and not receive the " Welp, I'm sadly not a BLM " treatment. But sadly like DRG's, many of us aren't BLM mains right? so we're all next up on the chopping block.

We receive changes because Square wants it for whatever reasons. Easier to balance or make the tasks easier for the Dev's, who knows. They think its right, it's their game, it's their Jobs not ours.

[Lyth]

...

Job 'difficulty' is actually one of the most frequently discussed topics on this subforum. Just have a look at the currently active topics. Even just recently we witnessed a fairly heated debate over whether SAM or BLM is the hardest job in the known universe. Players go into these sort of exchanges expecting the following:

Problem: 'I have proven that Job X is the hardest job in the game by winning the debate.'
Solution: 'Job X should therefore rewarded be with the highest dps and become a mandatory pick in all content.'

What you get instead is this:

Player Feedback: 'Job X is the hardest job in the game.'
Implemented Solution: 'Rework Job X so that it's less difficult.'

Player feedback about the 'problem' is addressed. It's just that the solution they've implemented is completely different from the one that players were expecting.

Now if players were actually upfront about what they were actually after (i.e. 'I want my job to have the highest dps and be a mandatory pick in all content'), then you wouldn't have this issue at all. Of course, such feedback is likely to be ignored as it should be, but at least you won't have to watch your beloved job be ripped apart by the rework gods.

There's nothing wrong with presenting feedback itself, but there are always multiple solutions to any proposed problem. We do as players have the ability define design problems. It's the solution that is generally outside our control.

[CelestiCer]

Job 'difficulty' is actually one of the most frequently discussed topics on this subforum. -snip-

This is such a gross misleading... Over-generalization.

Square/Dev's & Co consistently ignore Forum and Player feedback regarding Job balance and changes. Way more threads about preserving Job gameplay and depth vs players complaining about lack of DPS of their Jobs and even those threads are made Players who don't understand nor care for Balance, complaining about top irrelevant top percentile performance differences that never will affect them. Square is not going to read 1 or 2 types of these threads and go " Well shucks, gotta Buff BLM I guess ".

There's no hoard to be found about players complaining about

• Their Jobs being top Difficulty
• There for they should be Top DPS

At least no where near the same amount as " Kaiten removal " Threads and posters. When players asked for Buffs? it was for Fairness. How Auto-Crit was horrible upon release with SAM and WAR. Remember how Week 1 P8S progression showcased RDM RPR just underperforming? They didn't claim their Jobs were top-dog difficulty, they generally wanted fairness - rightfully so.

This is utterly misleading and quite insulting for the Forum posters. Players want Fairness, that's different. Read the forums and you'll see a lot more then just " DPS performance " topics

• Caster feedback for Endwalker
• Bard topics with lots about Dots
• SMN complaints about their Job's gameplay
• MCH about their Job's gameplay
• SMN MCH BRD QOL changes
• BRD disappointments and
• RPR dissatisfaction Topics
• SAM Kaiten still

Asking for Fairness is different, as is asking for difficulty of gameplay to be kept and preserved.

Square does not give a F about our Feedback, they'll implement changes however they want whenever they want without rhyme nor reason.

[Lyth]

...

I don't understand how your reply addresses my quoted post. Are you claiming that job 'difficulty' is not one of the most frequently discussed topics on this subforum? You are quite active in such discussions, so it's not like you're not fully aware of this.

It's normal to feel frustrated when you've been consistently unable to directly bring about the job changes that you want. But you can't brute force changes into happening as a player. And when your methods are demonstrably ineffective, then perhaps the problem is in the approach? We've managed to successfully bring about a number of changes with DRK's design over the years which were met with direct dev team engagement. You can look through my created threads history if you want to see evidence of that. Some of them took longer than others (Living Dead), but they still eventually happened. If you want to be effective, then you have to be willing to reflect on where your own mistakes are.

The central point of my last post was that you can influence the design question as a consumer, but not its solution. When you complain that your job is 'harder to play than others' but isn't adequately compensated for that with more damage output, the problem that you're putting forward is around job difficulty. That means that they could buff your job's damage output, but they just as easily could make your job easier to play. You have no control over which solution they pick, so the sensible thing to do is to avoid making this be the design focus in the first place.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think the bulk of the 'reworks' announced this expansion are melee dps? There's a reason for everything, if you soul search. Have a think about it and get back to me.

[CelestiCer]

Just out of curiosity, why do you think the bulk of the 'reworks' announced this expansion are melee dps? There's a reason for everything, if you soul search. Have a think about it and get back to me.

Your claim that Job difficulty is the most frequently discussed Topic is what I disagree with. Players discussing changes happening/having happened/ wanting to see happen are the most frequently discussed topics.

Even if your claim was true? the way you wrote that " Players want to proof their Job Top DPS proven based off of Difficulty " is misleading. I don't see a hoard of any x Jobs dominating the (Sub)Forum in numbers wanting to do so. Quite the claim? that all forum posters amount to is whining about not doing enough DPS based on them being the most difficult Job. My main language is not English, maybe I am a bad reader... but I don't think this is the most discussed Topic no...

Yoshi suggested players to " give Player-Feedback through Forums ". Includes your Job, changes you wanna see or don't wanna see. Square has ignored this multiple times and you're suggesting to do more then what Square suggested which we have done and it takes sometimes years to see results? or no results. And if you're going to suggest everyone to be the next Zepla/Asmon/Xenos to more easily get attention from Square for the changes we want to see? that's quite the realistic take...

The bulk of the reworks announced this Expansion being Melee DPS? weird question. We had SMN MCH PLD reworks, NIN tweak and a borderline stupid " Kaiten " removal. AST DRG were announced? I guess AST is a melee according to your question? All I see is Square wanting to appeal to a wider audience that are casual. Thus dumb down the Jobs regardless of the backlash and leave BLM alone cause Yoshi-P. I don't believe any of the changes or lack of are largely based or done due to Player-Feedback. I hope they don't do DRG dirty.

But hey? Soul search hard enough... to " please look forward to " complaining about those changes in the future on the forums.

[Lyth]

???

If you are fully aware that you're not interpreting a post correctly due to linguistic struggles, it's probably best to be open-minded and ask for clarification.

There is a distinction between 'one of the most frequently discussed' and 'the most frequently discussed'. The former is blatantly obvious to anyone who has been reading these forums for the past 10 years or so, while the latter, while possible, is both onerous and unnecessary to prove.

Players are often keen to provide feedback, but people aren't born effective communicators (and randomly bolding words, bulleting sentences, or compiling lists of links to spam threads is hardly a surrogate for eloquence). It's easy enough to vocalize unhappiness. But do you actually have the right insights into the problem and the ability to articulate what they are? And more often than not, while players may agree that they are unhappy, they may not be able to reach consensus on a viable solution.

As for why every melee dps job has been subject to reworks this expansion, the answer is simple. There was a new kid on the block, and everyone suddenly became insecure over it. SAM was in a fantastic place at the end of Shadowbringers, and they would have maintained that easily had they just been content with what they had. But for whatever reason, this forum was up in arms at 6.0's launch over issues around how melee jobs were rewarded for 'difficulty' relative to the new job. Longstanding melee players were expecting dps buffs to secure themselves raid spots in the face of fresh competition. What they got were job simplifications and a Monkey's Paw. We'll see the same thing play out next expansion if they release a new caster. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. If you're generally happy with the gameplay that you have, then just observe.

[AsiTsurugi]

(and randomly bolding words, bulleting sentences, or compiling lists of links to spam threads is hardly a surrogate for eloquence).

Neither is writing barely grammatically correct paragraphs by people who delude themselves to be "qualified" enough to be spouting their opinions as facts, especially in light of complete and utter lack of evidence to support said delusion in the slightest, while denigrating anyone with opposing views based on their misguided sense of "superiority" because they just so happen to write barely coherent sentences and have no other redeeming qualities of any sort.

[CelestiCer]

If you are fully aware that you're not interpreting a post correctly due to linguistic struggles, it's probably best to be open-minded and ask for clarification.

I am not misinterpreting anything, specially not when I quote sentences directly from your posts of which you fail to give the same courtesy. You ask of players to be " direct ", while your posts are linguistic jargon juggling between subtle passive aggressive jabs like " linguistic struggles " while insulting 100s of voices from my" Compiled Samurai List " indirectly... as if they were non existing and just Spam. " Be upfront " with what you mean.

Majority of the threads simply are not about DPS mains crying about being entitled to Top DPS by proving their Jobs to be the most difficult. A momentary peak like you said yourself... doesn't paint the broader picture. Plenty topics are about...

• Job Design discussions like this one
• Job Skills anything
• Job Feedback upon patch
• Job Skill issues and bugs like that of the NIN one by Stella
• Job suggestions and changes
• Even topics about new Jobs

And many more other topics I'm sure across that 10 years of reading forums.

Misleading it all with just enough correct facts, but to skew it into your narrative because you want it to be about DPS performance based off of Difficulty <- I know Square mentioned this themselves, but even they don't follow their own words. My English might sound basic? but at least I am direct. Communicating with you is like talking to politician. All words, no substance, Zero points made, Zero arguments actually tackled sprinkled with insults, yet layered with enough jargon to keep it subtle.

I am being nice though you can tell as I am using your own words here cause I remember that I have quote " linguistic struggles " as you put it right? Try and be more direct please and actually say what you want to say next time - you know as you yourself tell others to do as well that is. Mhm.