Delete rescue from the game.

[Renathras]

...

I mean, we could poll on it, but considering one of the biggest complaints against SCH from both surveys seems to be "we hate Energy Drain uses Aetherflow competing with AF heal/mitigation abilities we want to use but feel like we shouldn't", I don't think doing that with other Jobs (WHM, SGE) is a good idea, since it's something people don't like, not that they want more of. I also never accept the "killing faster is utility/mitigation" because you can't noticeably kill bosses faster. The average Extreme/Savage boss, hell, the average 4 man dungeon boss, doesn't die substantially quicker due to SCH Energy Drains. 300 Potency per minute for a 3 min or less fight (4 mans) is around 900 potency, or, what, 3-ish Broils, roughly? For trash packs, this argument makes a lot more sense, but for bosses, it really doesn't. So many people use it, but in absolute terms, it's borderline irrelevant since that much damage is comparable to a few crits and falls within an average run's white noise variation (Crits and DHits). No one is saving the day in any real way by using Energy Drain outside of cases your party BARELY meets Enrage, in which case we're arguing a different point (your DPSers aren't great) than your damage being utility/mitigation.

When no healing is needed, Lilies are still a movement tool. But as I noted, a shield, HoT, or mitigation spender would resolve that problem since those are always useful actions in almost all cases. There are VERY few cases where, at the very least, the main Tank isn't taking damage of any kind for over 15 seconds. Not saying NONE (Ex5), but in general, that's not happening (and even then, you can just move your spenders to when the damage IS happening)

Melee Healers won't work in FFXIV because of the way boss abilities target players. That encounter design mechanic would have to change first. Most mechanics are designed with 4 melee safe spots (for the 2 Tanks and 2 Melee the Devs balance 8 mans around) and 4 ranged safe spots (for the 2 Healers and 2 DPSers). Some Healer targeting mechanics require one or both Healers to move way from the boss (HydEx Chackrams, for example), though that's a bit more rare (they tend to like stack markers, which often require at least 1 Tank in the stack and so they try to make melee range safe for that). P5S toxic pit circles (not during Devour, the other times he uses it) are the same way where there are two close in and two far out. But the point is, they'd have to change the safe spot design system to allow for potentially "5 melee range Jobs" for that to work.

But you don't need to be melee to have a combo system. MCH has a 1-2-3 and is entirely at range. SGE already has laser guns, so is half-way there.

I didn't comment on AST because I don't play it, have never cared for it, never liked it, and don't like it's aesthetic either. So there's nothing at all about the Job I like, hence I very very VERY rarely play it. I only leveled it to have an idea what co-healers who are AST might bring to the party for when I do roulettes and PF. I defer to AST players for what they want. As I don't play it and don't like anything about it, I accept the Job isn't for me, nor do I request that it be one made to my liking, nor is it one of the Jobs I would like "kept the same" for my benefit since I don't even like it as it is.

I've said before Dissipation is a bad ability, but people were swearing by it and insisting it's a gigabrain optimization thing that SCH is entirely dependent on to be a Job at this point. /shrug I agree it shouldn't dismiss Eos (goes against SCH's class lore) and should affect oGCD healing actions.

Agreed on SGE. I think Toxicon having more consistent generation/being damage neutral (which would actually increase the skill ceiling since it would encourage stocking them for burst windows vs the "normal" players who use them whenever they feel like it and don't take preemptive actions to stock more), Rhizo adding one as well (making it a healing and/or damage CD, but not depending on resources fighting each other, per se), Plegma being 25y range (just a QOL "makes sense" thing), and AOE Kardia CDs (to really drive that SGE is trying to heal by using its damage spells) would make the Job perfect.

Honestly, WHM should have never had Stone, Water, or Air, and arguably never really HAD Water (a CD ability that you couldn't use as part of your rotation because of the KB that eventually had the damage removed wasn't really a "water spell") in the first place. It's not a Druid, even if the lore in FFXIV specifically is funky on that. Final Fantasy WHMs in general are not and never have been Druids. We really need a Geomancer or Druid Job (Healer or DPSer or both) to fill in that aesthetic niche for people that want it, but WHM ain't it.

In Savage sure. In extreme? Eh not really, it's not that BarbEX and RubiEX hit especially hard,

I think this is perspective, but at level, Barb absolutely hit like a truck. People even commented on it a lot at the time, and people in here were praising it for the much higher and more engaging (in their words) healing requirements. Ex5, not at all, but Ex4, definitely so.

Also, HydEx did a LOT of damage at level, so not sure what you mean there. ZodEx didn't if you had a good dorito.

That's my point, though (on the GCD heals); it can entirely be done this way without stressing "Little Timmy". They can fall back on GCD heals for the extra damage. High skilled players would try not to, but if the damage was consistent enough (a damage wave every 10 sec or so), it would force more GCD heal use in response since you don't have enough oGCDs to use that frequently and not run out at some point, which will necessitate GCD healing or VERY intelligent use of GCD hels. The point is, with consistent healing requirements (rather than massive spikes all at once then long downtime), healing GCD needs can be increased without stressing "Little Timmy" who would just solve the problem with "more Medica".

Not only did you have far less oGCD healing capability back then, but you also had to contend with your heals having a cast time across the board.

This, I think, is the answer.

I agree that Cleric is VERY unlikely to ever return.

I disagree that removal of oGCD or insta cast healing is a bridge that the Devs would be unwilling to cross. Indeed, I'd argue that's the crux of the healing game's problem right now. So no, not fair. I haven't seen anything from the Devs to indicate they would be unwilling to make such a rework. What they'd PROBABLY do (if they were to do it) would be design the Healing Jobs differently. For example, SGE has a high focus on oGCD heals right now while WHM is the most GCD heal (via Afflatus) Healer in the game.

Though I honestly don't think there's a solution to the 4 man problem (if it's even a problem) with the current mindset of the community. They'd need to be something you don't have to grind (since people would avoid them if there are faster/more efficient tome grinds - just like the speedrunning conversation arguing people would do this over a savings of a mere 2 minutes). That's why Criterion failed, since people saw no reason to do it once they had the rewards since it's just a more inefficient way of getting what they want.

Which has been caused by a side issue: Lack of damage from mobs.

If mobs would deal significantly more damage, it can deter a tank from pulling more, knowing that if he does it anyway, its a wipe. Sure, with proper coordination, then tank and healer might still find ways to w2w. But the moment this isnt default, it shows a lot better balance. And this is why having more packs is welcome: it makes the pulling part less static (as many tanks by default will pull 2 packs). Just imagine 5 packs where the 3rd and 4th are very hard hitting. The tank can decide to go for many patterns (1+2,3+4,5 or 1+2+3,4+5 or 1+2,3,4+5), and this freedom also creates variety. But this only works if the enemies do enough damage. Otherwise even if its 5 packs, they will all still be pulled at once. And if this works, gating isnt needed because the gating is already applied by the risk of wipes.

Agreed. The problem is, again, the community. If a Tank only goes for 1 pack at a time, then the DPS complain he isn't going fast enough while the Healer is OOM... "This is why we can't have nice things". In fact, that's why the Devs put in the walls in the first place, isn't it?

...

- SGE has a 40 sec GCD, a "first three are free" Toxicon use, and Pneuma every 2 mins that it can use. So its rotation is already distinct from the others. If Pneuma was on a 15 sec CD, that's essentially identical to what (many) people are asking for WHM to be. The idea of "the dps healer" has fallen totally flat and shouldn't be part of the argument. Not to mention SCH did it better anyway in SB/HW.

- Damage neutral Toxicon would increase the skill ceiling, not lower it. Low skill players would either not use it or blow it whenever, while high skilled players would know to stock 3 Adderstings (and ideally a Rhizomata) for burst windows to optimize damage. This would encourage being knowledgeable about their cds and tracking the party's burst windows, increasing the skill ceiling over what we have now. Remember: 4x Glare (Misery) or 3x Dosis (damage neutral Toxicon) in a Burst window is worth more than a single Glare/Dosis GCD in that spot during the burst window, meaning optimizing around that would actually increase the skill ceiling. Right now, using Toxicon in or out of the burst window does the same damage as using a Dosis instead, meaning the skill ceiling is lower with Toxicon being equal to Dosis. It wouldn't displace Dyskrasia based on what the falloff was tuned to. For example, if it did the 660 to the target but only 20% on other targets, this would make Dyskrasia the DPS gain on large packs of low health enemies. Likewise, if the Tank wasn't taking damage fast enough to generate Addersting quickly, you'd use Dyskrasia for the "filler" of the rotation, which would be no different than now.

- I don't think those "benefits" of Phlegma are sufficient. SGE players should know the range of their heals, they shouldn't need to be "coaxed" into range of using them. I've known since I picked up WHM in ARR I needed to mosey my happy lil' butt to the center-ish of the arena to use it if I wanted to hit most of the party. I didn't need a semi-melee range ability requiring that. I also can't say I've ever used Plegma as a range gauge/guide. Like...ever.

- I think the solution to the kit vs SCH is to change SCH. Between the two, it's extremely obvious (from all the surveys and various discussion threads) that people REALLY want SCH changed while people kind of want SGE to be more like it is now with minor changes around the periphery. The people have spoken, and they want SGE to be a damage juggling Job with oGCD healing that it weaves within its attacks to cover the party's needs. SCH already works differently by having its main healing resource be weighted against doing damage via ED. The best way to differentiate them would be to change SCH at this point.

The Job itself is fine as it is now, and has a lot of soul and heart. It just needs a few tweaks to get it to perfection.

(Wow, me defending the most damage focused of the Healing Jobs...we do live in interesting times.)

I do like your Soteria idea, though. That's more or less kind of what I've been thinking would be neat. Like Plenary Indulgence, just triggered by attacking instead of healing giving SGE a good dichotomy/foil against WHM. (Not sure about THE REST of what you proposed, but that part I like. Oh, and Eukrasia Dyskrasia - while the name makes me giggle, I've proposed the same thing.)

[Tigore]

@ Renathras

I like to explore and brainstorm ideas to see what may work and what may not. I keep seeing players posting how they don't like the current healer play styles ... but then no other solution is suggested in an attempt to fix the problem. The devs do need a direction to determine what a best course of action could be ... otherwise ... why are they being expected to be mind readers ... In this case, we might have multiple answers to how we can refine the healers with more DPS buttons. As a result, we will have to go by if the devs can do it and if the majority of the players want it.

In the case for melee healers, I would have been thinking of brainstorming if 1 of the 2 melee DPS could be swapped for a range or spell DPS to make it work. Maybe in the current Savage meta, it is not designed like that. Since the melee damage dealers tend to unanimously bring higher personal damage for the current meta. If we do have the BLM buffed to be around SAM's level, could it be possible to have a shift in bringing a melee healer? I am thinking more into the future if such a thing could be possible then. Most times, I see the healer targeted mechs have 2 stacks and those tend to be brought into melee range on opposite sides.

For the DPS side of the argument, I have made those suggestions with the intent for healers doing those 4 man content they already overgear. In a Savage setting, I can see Energy Drain being used far less. Although the DPS players should be the main contributors, every little bit helps if it is possible for the healer to do so. This may be a section where we might have to agree to disagree. I am not against using a regen or damage reduction spell that consumes a lily of course. That still translates to more damage contribution from me using Glare / Holy GCDs and it also still translates to using the Afflatus Misery AoE spell eventually. Assuming we are talking about the 4 mans again.

In any case, I have been quite adaptable to several healing styles and I had been used to Blizzard re-inventing the wheel every expansion for WoW :P I tend to see a split in opinions if the players approve of that approach or not. Even if it looks like I am indifferent, I will still examine the spells to see if they make sense or not. In the case of Rescue discussed by Romah, that one is up in the air. But even if we were to add the AoE Rescue that a few want here, it doesn't sound like it would "rescue" the healer class for them if they still don't like the style ...

[ty_taurus]

@ Renathras

I like to explore and brainstorm ideas to see what may work and what may not. I keep seeing players posting how they don't like the current healer play styles ... but then no other solution is suggested in an attempt to fix the problem. The devs do need a direction to determine what a best course of action could be ... otherwise ... why are they being expected to be mind readers ... In this case, we might have multiple answers to how we can refine the healers with more DPS buttons. As a result, we will have to go by if the devs can do it and if the majority of the players want it.

In the case for melee healers, I would have been thinking of brainstorming if 1 of the 2 melee DPS could be swapped for a range or spell DPS to make it work. Maybe in the current Savage meta, it is not designed like that. Since the melee damage dealers tend to unanimously bring higher personal damage for the current meta. If we do have the BLM buffed to be around SAM's level, could it be possible to have a shift in bringing a melee healer? I am thinking more into the future if such a thing could be possible then. Most times, I see the healer targeted mechs have 2 stacks and those tend to be brought into melee range on opposite sides.

For the DPS side of the argument, I have made those suggestions with the intent for healers doing those 4 man content they already overgear. In a Savage setting, I can see Energy Drain being used far less. Although the DPS players should be the main contributors, every little bit helps if it is possible for the healer to do so. This may be a section where we might have to agree to disagree. I am not against using a regen or damage reduction spell that consumes a lily of course. That still translates to more damage contribution from me using Glare / Holy GCDs and it also still translates to using the Afflatus Misery AoE spell eventually. Assuming we are talking about the 4 mans again.

In any case, I have been quite adaptable to several healing styles and I had been used to Blizzard re-inventing the wheel every expansion for WoW :P I tend to see a split in opinions if the players approve of that approach or not. Even if it looks like I am indifferent, I will still examine the spells to see if they make sense or not. In the case of Rescue discussed by Romah, that one is up in the air. But even if we were to add the AoE Rescue that a few want here, it doesn't sound like it would "rescue" the healer class for them if they still don't like the style ...

I make and remake healer theorycrafts all the time. I've shared a few, but it's just not something people really care to read about.

[Tigore]

I am not a frequent poster, yeah. Other games like WoW in the past, Dissidia FF Opera Omnia, Metroid Prime, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, etc. It is kind of disheartening not seeing much discussion of the healer theories in some threads. It sometimes looked like complaining with no solution. But for Ty, I do remember a couple threads a while ago relating to these discussions. I probably should have bookmarked the threads.

I do admit it would also be nice if we get a Square Rep giving us some form of plan they have decided to take too. We recently have 3 proposed directions for Sage from both Renathras and Waxsw for the reasoning why.

As for the RDM or BLM style for Sage, that one looks interesting too. I can imagine both systems rewarding Addersting for getting the systems right. If the RDM version is selected, it might need a Rhizomata-like cooldown to convert the balanced "black and white mana buffs". The BLM version sounds like it would probably be something like every 10 "fire casts" granting addersting. Needs another resource to simulate burning mana down for "fire casts".

The AST I didn't mean to say it will become the simplest overall. I was just meaning the DPS buttons since the cards take up a bit of toolbar space already. If that one had something like the "PLD requiescat combo morphing button" in the WHM part, it may help to squeeze in more spells.

[AmiableApkallu]

I do admit it would also be nice if we get a Square Rep giving us some form of plan they have decided to take too.

I don't think they participate in the forums in that capacity. My current go-to for their thinking is this interview from 2021:

Yoshida: So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they've really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don't think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I' m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don't you use it?” and I don't think that's optimal either.

But of course we do have the new job, Sage, which will allow for this unique gameplay where if you land an attack it heals at the same time. Or if there's like a particular barrier ability that you cast and once that's depleted it increases the resource which could lead to an attack which is very unique. I think players would be interested in trying that out for sure.

The higher the player skill of a healer and raid player, the more he wants to attack in his spare time. When it comes to that, I want to make more technical use in attacks, well, I understand the feeling. However, if anything, the base is a healer, so after all, we want to make the attack of the content side more intense, and first of all, we want to make it fun by doing good heel work.

That's why I don't think I'll do anything like adding attack methods or attack rotation to healers more violently. Because of that, new healers and newbies think, "I'm a healer, but I have to attack." I don't think it's a very good thing to do because it's just a matter of attacking after that, honestly.

However, even with that said, the new barrier healer called "Sage" this time will heal you when you attack, and when the barrier you put up disappears, you'll get attack resources and want to attack more, so I think it's a bit of an interesting job. So, I think it would be great if people like that could try Kenja once.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yoshida

I'm so exhilarated when Aionagonia casts and I do the 'really good heal work', and make the quick decision to use Rapture instead of... actually no wait, everything is solved by using Rapture when you're in WHM town.

Its the same reasoning we've debunked a million times, it's like an 'anti-strawman' argument. Or a 'please wont someone think of the children' situation maybe. A hypothetical new player is going to be bullied out of the game by a hypothetical veteran, for not using hypothetical new damage skills. I'm not discounting that some people might have that experience. But the frequency of that occuring in casual content like an EX roulette would be miniscule. It's more likely a DPS will get called out for using singletarget in a pull of 9 mobs. Plus, there's a report button for a reason, if someone's a dickhead about a healer not doing damage, the healer can report them. Don't make me break out the watermelon analogy again.

Yoshi-P redesigned this game and took MOP as inspiration. But MOP was 10 years ago, it's time to move on, even WOW abandoned 'healer only heals' mentality

edit: also, what does he mean 'you break the barrier and that gives a resource that leads to an attack, very unique' DRK had TBN in STORMBLOOD and breaking it gave exactly 1 Bloodspiller of gauge, what was he even on about lmao

[AmiableApkallu]

Yoshi-P redesigned this game and took MOP as inspiration. But MOP was 10 years ago, it's time to move on, even WOW abandoned 'healer only heals' mentality

This kinda feels like a case of Anime Healers vs. MMO healers, which, hilariously enough, brings us back to the complaint in the original post: "We go at my pace, Mr. Tank, not yours."

[WaxSw]

snip

Only difference is that in the aoe, prognosis on the tank to get addersting should be below dyskrasia spam, no GCD spam should be ever that efficient

SGE has a 40 sec GCD, a "first three are free" Toxicon use, and Pneuma every 2 mins that it can use. So its rotation is already distinct from the others.

No its not, proof:
WHM rotation in p8sp1
Sage rotation in the same instance

Those differences you mention aren't enough to make the jobs feel different, because toxicon outisde of AoE is just a mobility tool and that unique 40s damage cooldown already existed in the form of assize for whm (funnily enough even the devs consider them similars seeing how they balance both at the same time)

Even tanks as homgenized as they are are far more different than those 2, just look at any 2 tanks and you'll se how they aren't even close.

Damage neutral Toxicon would increase the skill ceiling, not lower it.

It woudn't and honestly I feel that it should be obvious why its not but to summarize
-You're gaining that "playing into party buffs" optimization which in the end amounts for less than 300-400 dps at the cost of losing literally every kind of GCD and cooldown optimization whatsoever which is what differentiates a 2k dps healer from a 6k dps one, you're shrinking the difference between the floor (plenty of GCD use and not much use of cooldowns) and the ceiling (no GCD and every cooldown planned to fit into the exact moment they are the most efficient)

-By introducing those big hits (3x660) you're increasing the RNG realiance of the job, something that the game does not need actually considering how swingy damage can be already and that niche of playing into buffs is already covered by phlegma
-You're disencouraging job knowledge, one of the main reasons to know how effective the healing cds are is to squeeze more damage, by giving an unlimited dps neutral action you're basically removing any incentive because no matter how they heal everything is equally as efficient, this only shrunks the skill ceiling because there is less relevant things to learns and go against the very idea of how healers are played

I could go on but I don't want to writte a full essay about that but basically, if you've ever cared about healing optimizations the reason why unlimited damage neutral gcds is a bad idea is obvious.

I don't think those "benefits" of Phlegma are sufficient. SGE players should know the range of their heals, they shouldn't need to be "coaxed" into range of using them

Same could be said about increasing its range when the bosses hitboxes are already of the size of skyscrapes, if anything this also hurts the ceiling (and the flavour) cause a bit of knowledge on when to use phlegma plays a role in some fights

Sch change

I do agree on that but didn't want to talk about that cause Sch is its own can of worms and is honestly another topic that could fill pages easily

The Job itself is fine as it is now, and has a lot of soul and heart.

If its for you, nice, but its undeniable that is dpsing side is the same as the existing healers had, its job mechanics are not unique and its main way of healing is a carbon copy of a pre existing job. Those are problems that no new job ever had and I think it shows that SE did not care about it in the slightest.

[Tigore]

I just placed the tank shield where it is since it would "never get used" if its priority is below Dyskrasia. In its current state, yeah it causes Dyskrasia to almost never get used. Even in overgeared 4 mans I try, the primary shield is broken almost within 2 seconds with the big AoE pulls. Don't worry, I use Physis and Haima / Panhaima with the primary shields too. If the primary shield was modified into ... say .. a 2 - 3 multi hit shield that needs the last charge to be broken for an addersting ... then I could see Dyskrasia being used more even with the priority I listed. If that is still not enough, we could always place an internal cooldown on addersting being granted by the shield.

[Renathras]

No its not, proof:
...
Those differences you mention aren't enough to make the jobs feel different,
...
Even tanks as homgenized as they are are far more different than those 2, just look at any 2 tanks and you'll se how they aren't even close.

Okay, I know you guys hate me saying this, but it needs to be said:

This is subjective.

I don't mean the number of casts, that's objective. I mean the feel. Any time you use the word feel, you're speaking in subjective terms. I've read through the results of the long-form surveys on Reddit. While there are a lot of disappointed people (results of the satisfied/dissatisfied question here:

Note that the scaling is done from 1-9 instead of 1-10 since Ty's system is weird, so the net ratings are actually higher if you change the 9 to 10, but this is "looking at it in the worst way possible" - it's also not broken down into individual Jobs, and keep in mind the three notes listed... ), there are a lot of satisfied ones that talk about how DIFFERENT the Healer Jobs feel to them.

Conversely, hop over to the Tank forum. They've been complaining ever since the 6.3 PLD rework that PLD now feels just like GNB (or WAR, depending on who you ask), and that DRK feels just like WAR, and that all the Tanks are samey and feel alike because they just have the same 1-2-3 rotation, with some gimmick -4 or equivalent, and that their mitigation toolkits feel identical.

...I disagree with them, too, mind you, but the point is, you're speaking for yourself - AND for those that think like you - but not for everyone. There seem to be a lot of people who describe all the Healers as feeling very different to play. I would wager this is because some players put more emphasis on the healing side of things and others the DPSing side of things, with the former feeling different and the latter feeling they're the same.

It woudn't and honestly I feel that it should be obvious why its not but to summarize

You list a lot of things but don't really substantiate them.

You say you gain optimization (which SHOULD increase the skill ceiling...), but then handwave that away as just a small difference (but don't say what the difference is now to compare it to), then say "losing literally every kind of GCD and cooldown optimization whatsoever" but don't explain how or why you're losing these and what these optimizations are that you're losing. Like...what are you losing here? The only optimization you're losing is that of using downtime shields so Toxicon isn't damage neutral (which is clunk, not clever mechanics) and...what? If you're trying to stock the Toxicons for burst, it means you're trying to avoid them as a movement tool, not use them more for one (so you're gaining ceiling/optimization there, not losing it), you can use GCD heals for movement optimization in place of Toxicon, I guess? But since the Toxicons you gain are for burst and you're trying not to overcap them otherwise, that should still be a net increase in the skill ceiling. You say it will shrink the gap between ceiling and floor, but don't explain how it's supposedly doing so.

You are correct on increasing the RNG reliance, but it's more increasing the buff window reliance. If this is bad, then every DPS and Tank Job in the game right now are bad because they all do this.

You say it's disencouraging[sic] job knowledge...but don't explain how. Fully optimizing SGE's burst under this model would require MORE Job knowledge, not less! You'd want to stock Toxicons and Plegmas for burst windows, have the raid awareness to know when those start, and ensure you land all three Toxicons and your two Plegmas in the burst window. That already would be a higher skill ceiling than what SGE's damage rotation has going for it now, would it not? And you would still be rewarded (provided you haven't overcapped Addersting) for downtime shielding. You'd be rewarded for knowing when you NEED to shield so you could optimize around that to use those Toxicons for movement (knowing you'll have more than 3 by the burst window and so need to burn some) instead of Plegma, ensuring a good player is stocking the Plegmas (2) for the burst window while a less optimized player would be using Plegmas instead and have a lower burst output and thus lower overall output.

Everything I can think of has this rewarding Job and kit knowledge as well as encounter knowledge. You're going to have to explain to me how this isn't so, because I'm not seeing it here.

I think what you're trying to say is people can more freely shield (but that's a trap if they dry out their MP) and that if they use Toxicon outside of burst it's a DPS loss but gives them more movement or something? But that wouldn't be optimizing, and thus is an example of widening the skill ceiling from the floor, since the lower skilled player wouldn't be optimizing there while the higher skilled one would be.

I do agree on that but didn't want to talk about that cause Sch is its own can of worms and is honestly another topic that could fill pages easily

Fair enough, though I suspect we might agree more on THAT topic than this one.

but its undeniable that is dpsing side is the same as the existing healers had, its job mechanics are not unique and its main way of healing is a carbon copy of a pre existing job

It is, in fact, deniable, as it's DPSing side isn't identical to any other Job. The only case that's absolutely true of is SCH and AST (since SCH arguably doesn't use Ruin 2). The question is how distinct they are (not very), not if they're identical ("the same").

It's Job mechanics are unique, but they're pretty similar to SCH's. Their Addersgall is generated differently, they have Addersting instead of Energy Drain (which is also generated differently), their splash heal works differently (arguably better), and their oGCD kit aside from Aetherflow/Addersgall is distinct (and arguably better as well) than SCH's. The fact remains that in all three surveys (Ty's and my two long form ones), SGE is the most praised Healer Job while SCH (in the long form) is pretty derided (only AST is worse), and in Ty's, SCH gets lower marks than SGE. Clearly people are seeing some distinction, otherwise they'd be rating them the same (in Ty's) and talking about them the same (in mine) where people aren't.

One of the most common things said in the long form surveys is "I really like WHM and SGE, but I don't like SCH since it's like a worse SGE and I really don't like AST" or some variation on that theme.

EDIT2:

I'd see the meleeing aspect of a healer akin to WHM's Lilies, you're DPSing whilst also healing and pocketing further resources for down the line. As long as it's melee focus was a means to generate resources whilst functioning optimally I think it'd be fine. Times where it was forced out of range could be taken as moments to spend said resources in optimised play, not to mention that boss hitboxes are so huge these days that you can smack them from deepest Narnia anyway. I don't think it would be a problem now in the same way it would have been back in 2.x-4.x.

Watch some world prog team Savage PoVs on YouTube. It's kind of surprising how little time you need to spend out of cane slap range.

Yeah fair.

I guess I should say this more like "in older content", but as I've said to you guys, older content doesn't matter, so...

You know what? Sure. Bring on the melee Healer.

Hm...Onimaiju...or whatever the thing that [SPOILER] from the Ranged Physical EW Role quest is. I'm not sure what it was, but like the shrine priest thing. Could have a playstyle slapping sacred suchers(sp?) on things like Miroku from Inuyasha. Honestly, I'd be fine with a melee Healer then. I wouldn't play it, but could be the candidate for the WAR 1-2-3 -4 combo system.