Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

[ty_taurus]

I think a big part of why the healer problems aren't as immediately apparent is because I believe most players who heal at all don't play healer exclusively. They don't go through the MSQ as a healer, and they don't exclusively heal in group content either. I think most healers are flex healers, so for them, there isn't as deep of an understanding of healer optimization, and even when things do feel stale, they switch to another job.

[Katish]

I think a big part of why the healer problems aren't as immediately apparent is because I believe most players who heal at all don't play healer exclusively. They don't go through the MSQ as a healer, and they don't exclusively heal in group content either. I think most healers are flex healers, so for them, there isn't as deep of an understanding of healer optimization, and even when things do feel stale, they switch to another job.

This is what I expect too...which is unfortunate as healers' problems will not be brought to the front given how those who main healers are basically the minority of the player base. What the healers need, and I have been saying this, is a unique identity per healer or at least moving in that direction. They are the biggest offenders of over-homogenizing and need to be fixed and adapted to the game, healing is very unneeded and a lot of the responsibilities of the healers have been pushed onto other classes, so as Rilifane said gotta love that 1111....and 2 if you're feeling greedy /sarcasm.

[ForsakenRoe]

This is what I expect too...which is unfortunate as healers' problems will not be brought to the front given how those who main healers are basically the minority of the player base. What the healers need, and I have been saying this, is a unique identity per healer or at least moving in that direction. They are the biggest offenders of over-homogenizing and need to be fixed and adapted to the game, healing is very unneeded and a lot of the responsibilities of the healers have been pushed onto other classes, so as Rilifane said gotta love that 1111....and 2 if you're feeling greedy /sarcasm.

See, I said this ages ago when I first posted in these forums. Look at Apex Legends, or some such game. You have your characters, and their abilities, but you also have this (quickly stolen from a YT vid):



See that bit that says 'Technological Tracker' below Bloodhound's name? At a single glance, a player can tell what the character's vibe and aesthetic, and even gameplay, is about. Bloodhound's gonna be a character who tracks, like a hunter, using technology. So you play as them and you see, oh, this character has a scan that lets them see enemies through walls for a couple of seconds (if they're in range), they can see people's tracks (ie, footprints, opened doors, opened supply containers) and how long ago those 'traces' were left.

We need this for each of the classes in this game, as a guide for the identity of the class. Like, what sounds cooler to read on the official job guide, 'Astrologian' or something like 'Astrologian - Herald of Fate'? Okay maybe it's not cool, maybe its just cringe but we're playing an MMO, we live and breathe the cringe

[ASkellington]

I think a big part of why the healer problems aren't as immediately apparent is because I believe most players who heal at all don't play healer exclusively. They don't go through the MSQ as a healer, and they don't exclusively heal in group content either. I think most healers are flex healers, so for them, there isn't as deep of an understanding of healer optimization, and even when things do feel stale, they switch to another job.

I don't want to say their opinion isn't valid, because they should be considered, but, they shouldn't be the focus of any changes. Same as I shouldn't be the focus of any tank changes. I don't exclusively play tank in mid or hard content. I have my pain points same as any, and I have things I don't agree with, but I don't have deep dive knowledge like I do for AST for example.

Changes to any class or role should be targeted for the players who actually play that role more than a flex position. That SE doesn't do this is ridiculous.

When I was a little sprout I began as CNJ since I'm a healer/support main in every game I play. I had Aero III, Cleric Stance, Stoneskin, Fluid Aura still did damage, and whatever I crossclassed with ACN or THM - I thought cool, this is like my priest in WoW with a bit of druidism added in!

Any 'healer main' sprout joining in now will too probably think "it'll get better!" and eventually realize...no, it doesn't really get better, they're only ever pressing 111111111, specially because WHM has LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO, NOT EVEN OGCDS until 56 when they get Assize. I really wouldn't blame them if they just dropped it and go with a dps class instead.

I started in Shb before "the great pruning of Post 2.0 BS" and the AST buffs. The only reason why I didn't quit was because I wanted to play AST that damn bad for aesthetic reasons cause the cards I wanted to play with got removed. Pretty sure I wouldn't hate post patches any where near as much as I do parts of SB and EW if I wasn't a healer. ...Should've mained DRG.

Still don't miss old Sleeve Draw and Lord/Lady BS! Crap was clunky for no good reason.

[Renathras]

I think a big part of why the healer problems aren't as immediately apparent is because I believe most players who heal at all don't play healer exclusively. They don't go through the MSQ as a healer, and they don't exclusively heal in group content either. I think most healers are flex healers, so for them, there isn't as deep of an understanding of healer optimization, and even when things do feel stale, they switch to another job.

Again, just piping in for the evening and my reply to this is simple:

This sounds eerily similar to the "real healers" argument I was told is an insult and not allowed (even though I wasn't using it) to describe people with different opinions.

Many people who play Healers exclusively are disagreeing with your position. I play Healers almost exclusively. I VERY rarely will touch a Tank or DPSer (WAR/PLD or SMN/RDM) when the Healer spots are all full. If asked what I want to play in any content, it's always Healer with "but if you need me on something else..." in the cases where I know someone else would rather be in the Healer slot(s), because I'm at least competent at all three roles and I keep my Caster and Tank gear relatively up to date (I know a lot of people only gear out for a single role and so don't have that capability). But I only do that if the situation demands it, and if given a choice, Healer is what I do.

I leveled all of ARR on WHM. HW on WHM. SB on WHM. ShB on WHM. EW on SCH (and no, I didn't swap to SMN). The Job I go through the MSQ with is always a Healer. The only exception I've made to date is Ultima Thul I played through on GNB since I had hit 90 on SCH and had gotten GNB to 89 (since I was running Roulettes on it while doing MSQ on SCH...I'm still not even quite sure HOW I managed that!) so the xp wouldn't go to waste.

I've only ever leveled up using Healers for MSQ, and I use them for my first dungeon runs of any new MSQ dungeon, as well as all the solo instances. I've also done a lot of poking about in PotD and HoH solo with them trying different runs, on all of them but AST anyway.

Contrary to your position: I think the flex Healers are the ones that dislike Healing the most at this point. The people that prefer and enjoy their DPS Jobs more and only play Healer when their friends need them to - or, in other words, the exact opposite of me. The people who main DPS but only switch to Healer if needed and do so grudgingly. Those are the people most likely to dislike Healers.

.

Anyway, long story short:

No, the people who think Healers are fine are Healer mains, too. It's not only "real Healers" that think Healers are bad and only people who "aren't real Healers" who think they're okay.

Just wanting to set that straight.

[ty_taurus]

Again, just piping in for the evening and my reply to this is simple:

This sounds eerily similar to the "real healers" argument I was told is an insult and not allowed (even though I wasn't using it) to describe people with different opinions.

This is a prime example of taking what someone said and warping it into something it isn't in the effort to prove a point. The majority of players that play healer do not only play as healers. Naturally, if there is a problem that applies to the healing role and not the DPS or Tank role, or one or the other, then they obviously are not as affected by those problems because they have a way out. That's what I said. They are allowed to play healer, and they are allowed to enjoy healer, but they naturally are not subjected to the same burden as those who only play healer or who used to only heal, but left the role because of its burdens.

[Renathras]

This is a prime example of taking what someone said and warping it into something it isn't in the effort to prove a point. The majority of players that play healer do not only play as healers. Naturally, if there is a problem that applies to the healing role and not the DPS or Tank role, or one or the other, then they obviously are not as affected by those problems because they have a way out. That's what I said. They are allowed to play healer, and they are allowed to enjoy healer, but they naturally are not subjected to the same burden as those who only play healer or who used to only heal, but left the role because of its burdens.

That's why I said "sounds eerily similar to", not "is". (And noted that no one did that before, but this is far closer to that mark).

It seems if not you, some of the replies to you, were people saying that such people should have less of a say or be listened to less, or that they weren't knowledgeable about problems in the role or not in a good place to see and discuss them. And that players who did think Healers were okay didn't mainly play them or play through the MSQ with them, and so don't understand that angle, either.

All of which are untrue to begin with (there are many people who play multiple Jobs and/or roles and actually are masterful at them, understanding the problems and benefits of them), but even if we ignored that and pretended they were, many people that DO exclusively play healer are in disagreement (including through the MSQ and through other content like Trials, Raids, and so on).

Note also - since you mention taking what someone said and warping into into something it isn't - note I did not say there that you said they are not ALLOWED to play or enjoy healer. I didn't use the word "allowed" at all, other than saying the "not a real healer" insult was not allowed (by ForsakenRoe, I believe it was, who kept insisting I had employed it when I never did and she couldn't quote a single instance of me doing so).

So why are you defending from attacks I didn't make?

All I said was it sounds similar to something I was told not to do here (which I wasn't even doing), and seems to be downplaying either the opinions of people that like Healers or suggesting that the only people holding those positions are ones not in a good place to formulate them since they don't play Healers enough - or exclusively enough - to be aware of them. Both of which I was suggesting are untrue. You're attacking the wrong things.

Anyway, going to go back to not posting in here for a while. It's a little too echo-y in this chamber, not to mention toxic, to deal with on a regular basis.

EDIT:

All the healers could stand to have a 2nd DoT and a modifier.

Why is it always DoTs... /shakes head

Not everyone likes DoTs, and they're often boring. Some Jobs having them is great, but why does every Healer.......never mind.

I will never cease to be amazed by how people always propose DoTs as the solution to things... Not you specifically, Ryu, just in general, that's been proposed so many times. If the problem is Healers all play the same NOW, then having them all have the same solution of "another DoT" (even if they work differently) makes no sense. If the answer is "Well, if the DoT's work differently, the Healers won't feel so samey", then why not just take the ONE DoT they all have now and make them work differently instead?

WHM's Dia (with a frontloaded damage tick) and SGE's Eukrasia Dosis (being a modifier ability) already work differently. AST and SCH have a basic "place on enemy, does damage" DoT, so those are the ones that really need some window dressing. SCH getting a second DoT that has interplay with Fester and AST's having a shorter duration like 20 sec or something would make them both a bit different.

Anyway, it's whatever, but I'm constantly amazed by how many people propose that same boring solution. I personally hate DoTs in almost all their incarnations, so "more DoTs" I definitely don't agree on as a worthwhile solution. I'd rather a 1-2-3 combo, honestly; Stone, Water, Aero; Quake, Flood, Tornado...

If the goal is to make the Healer Jobs not all feel the same, then the answer would be to give one more DoTs but not to give them all more DoTs, since that just ends up in the same position as now, just with more button bloat and everyone more annoyed.

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Asside: I'd also note that 3-4 DPS buttons is a bar already met in some cases, depending on your definition. SGE has Dosis, EuDosis, and Plegma it uses routinely, with Toxicon and Pneuma on standby. WHM uses the most GCDs on "non-Glares" of any of the Healers, with Glare, Dia, Afflatus Solace/Rapture (technically DPS buttons), and Misery, not counting the oGCD Assize. SCH has Broil, Biolysis, Ruin 2, and the oGCD Energy Drain. AST has Malific and Combust and...I guess that's it, with Earthly Star and Macrocosmos as oGCDs. Of all the oGCD attacks Healers have, only Energy Drain is actually a choice (the others are "use on CD" except Macro, which is still used as part of a healing plan, not rotationally), and ED comes at the cost of sharing a resource with healing abilities.

I think the problem with SGE is that it doesn't use Toxicon/Pneuma as part of its standard rotation and that Plegma has a longish CD so doesn't feel as active - if it had a 15 sec CD (though it'd have to do less damage), it might feel like it's being pressed more (the normal rotation would be Eu Dosis, Plegma, 5 Dosis, Plegma, 4 Dosis, Eu Dosis, Plegma...), it would break up the Dosis spam and feel a little better. And with 2 charges, it wouldn't "feelsbad" if you NEED to use a GCD heal and have to push a Plegma to the right one GCD. (And it's not like SGE uses GCD heals much anyway). Honestly, making Plegma a 15 sec CD doing 45-ish% of the damage it does now would do a lot to "fix" its rotation, but having Toxicon have more frequent use would allow things to spice up a bit more.

WHM already uses the Afflatus abilities (4 per minute) to break up its spam, though since they're heals, they feel different to use and people often don't want to count them even though they're part of its damage rotation. There's not really an answer to that other than for people to realize they're part of the damage rotation...

SCH is where we start getting into real problems since it only has 3 spamable GCD abilities, and Ruin 2 has no use case since Broil IV has a 1.5 sec cast time for weaving and extensive slidecasting for movement, making Ruin 2 MOSTLY redundant unless you have a long chain of movement and bad ping, like the Wraith boss in Delubrium (the donut attack where you have to run from one side of the field to the other without much time to stop and even get in a quick cast if you don't have super low ping), a mechanic seldom used anyway. It's pretty clear SCH needs something else added to its damage kit, but it's unclear WHAT. It also sucks because it has the most button bloat of the Healers in a general sense...but they all are useful, so there's not really a lot to trim passed having Physic upgrade to Adlo. Somehow repurposing Ruin 2 could help, and adding another DoT and making Energy Drain work more like old Fester could help as well, though that would double down on the "Don't use Aetherflow for healing abilities" thing, which kinda sucks since Excogitation and Sacred Soil have such nice effects. But another DoT and ED getting the Fester effect of doing +100 potency for each of your DoTs on the target, along with a Thundercloud-like proc where Ruin 2 becomes Ruin 4, would probably be some good changes for SCH. And if Physic is made to upgrade into Adlo, this could all be done without adding a single additional hotbar slot needed.

And then AST...is where the REAL problem is, since they only have two GCD damage abilities, and they don't even have the rare situational use Ruin 2 option. Worse still, Combust doesn't have a lead tick of damage like Dia, so AST can't even use it as a ham-fisted movement tool like WHM can if it's out of Lilies and still needs more movement. AST has Lightspeed, but Lightspeed (a) is used in the burst to not kill the player's hands and (b) doesn't change the rotation or the recast of Malaific (so it doesn't even change the cadence), it only makes it usable for movement. AST is honestly the worst offender in the DPS rotation department, which is strange considering how many people say Healers are boring right now but that AST is the one they think is the least so...

Granted, AST is also slated for a 7.0 rework/massacre, so...

Also note these are just the single target rotations. But the AOE "rotations" are all truly one button. I do agree with what Ty said in the DPS forum about potentially merging single-target (for the most part) and AOE rotations with just a few single target abilities for niche situations like Deep Dungeons and the like.

I agree with your first sentence, however not necessarily with the part in bold as that's the part that leads to a rather dull experience- a copy/paste of each healer. by all means, let one have a few dots (likely SCH), but why not try to be a bit more creative, if possible for the other three healers? Maybe one could have a new DPS burst skill on longer CD, or another could have a proc skill, etc?

Shocking as it is for both of us:

I agree with IDontPetLalas.

[ty_taurus]

If you don’t believe my original post was a comment about other players not being “real” healers, then why say anything at all?

[RyuDragnier]

Why is it always DoTs... /shakes head

Not everyone likes DoTs, and they're often boring. Some Jobs having them is great, but why does every Healer.......never mind.

I will never cease to be amazed by how people always propose DoTs as the solution to things... Not you specifically, Ryu, just in general, that's been proposed so many times. If the problem is Healers all play the same NOW, then having them all have the same solution of "another DoT" (even if they work differently) makes no sense. If the answer is "Well, if the DoT's work differently, the Healers won't feel so samey", then why not just take the ONE DoT they all have now and make them work differently instead?

WHM's Dia (with a frontloaded damage tick) and SGE's Eukrasia Dosis (being a modifier ability) already work differently. AST and SCH have a basic "place on enemy, does damage" DoT, so those are the ones that really need some window dressing. SCH getting a second DoT that has interplay with Fester and AST's having a shorter duration like 20 sec or something would make them both a bit different.

Anyway, it's whatever, but I'm constantly amazed by how many people propose that same boring solution. I personally hate DoTs in almost all their incarnations, so "more DoTs" I definitely don't agree on as a worthwhile solution. I'd rather a 1-2-3 combo, honestly; Stone, Water, Aero; Quake, Flood, Tornado...

If the goal is to make the Healer Jobs not all feel the same, then the answer would be to give one more DoTs but not to give them all more DoTs, since that just ends up in the same position as now, just with more button bloat and everyone more annoyed.

Because it's the easiest option on the devs and the players without them having to worry about them "being too complex." The devs have been trying to streamline things and simplify them, and DoTs are often the easiest method since you set them once every X seconds and don't have to interact with them again. I'd personally prefer actual buttons for each job like it once was in HW and SB, but I'm having to give a suggestion based on the arbitrary design idea the devs want things at, so sadly that limits what can be thought up or done.

[Renathras]

...

The prevailing view right now seems to be "Abyssos was a good step and we want more of that, but the problem is we Healers had to rely on the DPS for party mitigation and that was really hit or miss in PF, so the more healing was great, we just need mit abilities moved from DPS to Healers, since Healers will get blame/more suffering if DPSers don't use them right now and we'd rather be in charge of the whole kit an kabootle ourselves."

Relatively few seem to want more damage buttons as their preferred solution, and some outright REALLY don't want any more at all. Almost NONE want a full on DPS rotation (people answer the question differently, so some interpret this as "DPS Job like SAM or DRG" while others interpret it as "a rotation to maintain"), so answers are kind of all over the place. But the short answer seems to be that MOST people don't want more of a rotation. Even people that want more damage buttons seem to want them to not be a rotation, such as SCH having more DoTs or WHM having Aero 3 for AOE pulls but having its single-target rotation unchanged.

So far, the results seem to be more or less in agreement with what I've said for a while about rough percentages of players and what they want (like where I once said about 20-25% would like a simple Healer like WHM while about number would be neutral, and about 40%ish would like something like SB SCH), which was the impetus behind my "four healers"/"make 2/3 more complex and 2/1 keep simple, probably WHM and maybe SGE"...and overall, something vaguely in that ballpark seems to be emerging. Likewise, the viewpoint of what the problem is seems to agree with what I've long said - oGCD heals are too powerful and encounters need more of a focus on healing, especially sustained healing, and GCD healing use that needs to be seen as not a warcrime.

For all the insistence I've got the wrong of it, it seems with a broader sample of the player base, I do not. But the results are still preliminary. Should be interesting to see when more come in. Though I'm trying to think of the right way to classify the answers. I love the questions being open ended and so the respondents can really say what they want and how they want it, but classifying it more precisely is going to be a bit of a challenge. But I think it's worthwhile...

Because it's the easiest option on the devs and the players without them having to worry about them "being too complex." The devs have been trying to streamline things and simplify them, and DoTs are often the easiest method since you set them once every X seconds and don't have to interact with them again. I'd personally prefer actual buttons for each job like it once was in HW and SB, but I'm having to give a suggestion based on the arbitrary design idea the devs want things at, so sadly that limits what can be thought up or done.

I do get that, but I kind of disagree. I find 1-2-3 easier to maintain than DoT every 30 seconds. I'm MUCH more prone to forgetting about my DoT and noticing it's fallen off SOME TIME after it's fallen off (could be 1 sec, could be 15, I don't know!) than I am to forget 2 comes after 1. Especially now that spellcasting doesn't break combos anymore (hit 1-2 on PLD then cast Clemency. Now look at your -3 button. It's still good to go!)

I feel like DoTs are actually harder/higher skill ceiling than a 1-2-3 since they're easy to forget if you don't have a third party tool reminding you of them. And I've yet to find a satisfactory way to track them. I'd love to have my Focus Target be only my buffs/debuffs, because sometimes I need to know other people's debufs on the target (e.g. see if Chain is up to time Misery), so I can't just check "only show my buffs/debuffs" since it robs me of that critical information. But if I had a bar that only showed my DoT, it'd be far more visible when it's fallen off. Ideally, having Focus Target only show mine and the target bar show all would be my solution, but you can't do this with the native client/HUD as far as I can tell, and I don't break TOS to use add-ons. The only time I've found DoT upkeep not more challenging than 1-2-3s...is when it's part of the 1-2-3, like Old PLD's rotation. There was really no way TO miss it unless you just did the wrong combo for some reason.