Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

[Semirhage]

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

I mean, I'm an odd one out because I don't think the Shadowbringers lilies actually made WHM "fun", but probably more people would be satisfied yeah. Yippee, three charges of what amounts to oGCD Medica, the WHM is saaaaved. It's definitely going to be fun and competitive next to *points at healers with a flying crapload of utility and buffs and strengths the WHM kit has only ever dreamed of*

[ty_taurus]

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

Personally, I would find it very disappointing if one of the most challenging magical disciplines known to Sharlayan--the hyper-offensive healer that heals through attacking, would have as shallow of a DPS toolkit as AST, without having any of its card system or anything even remotely close to it.

[fulminating]

It’s not like the sharlayans have shown themselves to be bastions of competence, nor the conniving bastards introduced in the ast questline, this expansion. Their complex warrior-scholar lovechild being utterly braindead would just be icing on the cake.

[RyuDragnier]

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

Tbh I really think they should have taken the time to make Seraph the permanent upgrade to both fairy forms. If they're fazing out differences between Selene and Eos, may as well go the full distance and make Seraph the permanent face of the fairy from now on.

[ForsakenRoe]

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

Personally, yes except the SGE part. If SGE was released 'with SB design on the other three healers', it'd have followed that design, not the one we have now. With that in mind, I assume it'd be closer to SB SCH in it's feel, maybe having a different system for how Toxicon works (so it's an actual rotational skill, not a scuffed ruin 2). Or maybe, like I've mentioned god knows how many times now, it'd have the current DPS system, and counteract that 'relative simplicity' by having it's damage>healing conversion system be more than just 'lol kardia', spread it to be AOE, generate shields via the damage, amplify the healing throughput (like soteria does now but as more than just an afterthought), etc. Either way, it wouldn't be 'SGE as it is now 1:1 copied over'

[Allegor]

It's also been brought up that even in its prime, AST is miserable in solo content as its cards very poorly translate to a single fighter--one who suffers the lowest DPS output of any combat job. If this game is going to try and better support single target play, it should make sure every job feels fun and interesting when playing alone or with trusts.

Something something "who even plays a healer in solo content?" or "just switch to a dps for the MSQ" because apparently if you play a healer to have fun being a healing class, you're doing it wrong - now go back to the kitc- ...err, ex/savage/ultimate queues :^)

[Aravell]

Speaking of MSQ on AST, I did a run through of the entirety of 6.0 MSQ as a WAR and then as an AST, the AST run took 3 hours more than the WAR run despite getting instant dungeon queues for every dungeon. I don't think people can say in good faith that solo content/MSQ on healer is fine as it is.

[Recon1o6]

I mean, I'm an odd one out because I don't think the Shadowbringers lilies actually made WHM "fun", but probably more people would be satisfied yeah. Yippee, three charges of what amounts to oGCD Medica, the WHM is saaaaved. It's definitely going to be fun and competitive next to *points at healers with a flying crapload of utility and buffs and strengths the WHM kit has only ever dreamed of*

Correct it did not. It became functional. That's not the same as fun.
Which is shb onwards in a nutshell. Stuff will function, but its not fun. Especially if you are a healer.

[Rilifane]

I mean, I'm an odd one out because I don't think the Shadowbringers lilies actually made WHM "fun", but probably more people would be satisfied yeah. Yippee, three charges of what amounts to oGCD Medica, the WHM is saaaaved. It's definitely going to be fun and competitive next to *points at healers with a flying crapload of utility and buffs and strengths the WHM kit has only ever dreamed of*

You're not.
I dislike the ShB Lilies because they are as bland and boring and sterile as it gets. They make WHM function. But copying the two most bland and boring skills (Cure II and Medica) or all skills for a free, instant version and making the only interaction automatic isn't something that makes WHM fun or let alone gives it a skill ceiling. You just throw Lilies left and right and use Misery at 3. There. That's it. WHM functions but it's bland.

Compare that to the vanilla healer WHM equivalent:

• multiple skills that reduce the cooldown of other skills, can be expanded further through talent choices
• multiple "chance to leave hot on target" talents paired with a "heals extra when jumping to a target with hot on it"
• a cooldown that restores mana and decreases remaining cooldown of everyone else's major defensive by 60s
• three heal cooldowns that each work very differently - one let's you use powerful heals more often through cooldown reductions from first point, one that gives a dps OR single target heal OR aoe heal buff after using related skills, one that is channeled
• a killing blow protection with 40% healing received increase that gets cooldown reduced by 2/3 if no killing blow was prevented or isn't consumed and gives the heal buff for the full duration if a killing blow was prevented
• a 10%, 8s dps and heal buff if healing/ damaging targets below 35%
• a skill that heals for 400% of its normal heal and has the cooldown reduced by 2/3 if it healed a target below 35%
• a dps spell proccing instant, free single target heals, 2 stacks
• in addition to a dps buff to you & someone else on 2min, a functioning and responsive Rescue-equivalent, a ground target speed buff for anyone who walks through with 3 charges and 30s cooldown, a mass dispell that affects 5 allies and 1 enemy on 20s cooldown

The utility is unique to this class as is the killing blow protection (can't cheese certain mechanics with it, sorry ), other classes bring different utility. Amazingly enough, they're all desired. While there do exist rankings, none of the specs are in "okay, but better bring something else" category.

And that's the most straightforward, basic healer in a generic raid heal spec.
Your raid won't die if you don't make good use of the "leave hot/ heal extra with hot" mechanic or if you don't manage to snapshot below 35% targets with a heal or if you don't use your cooldowns for maximum effect. But you have a lot of interactions that give room to increase your healing done, freeing up more time to dps with a toolkit that is, at its core, already more varied than in FF and you have the options to expand it further for a few talent points, adjustingg your toolkit to the environment.

I don't believe for ONE second that FF "can't do better" than what we have. There's plenty of ways to act interaction between heals and dps skills.
Especially the "gives 10% buffs if healing/ damaging below 35% targets" would work perfectly work in FF as you're encouraged to NOT instantly spam everyone to full. Every raidwide/ buster and quickly reacting to emergencies gives you a chance to milk it, making you a better healer AND green dps.
The mana restore & defensive reduction would also work nicely because having mit up more frequently in itself isn't op, you still need to time it properly. Both the mit itself and the cd reduction to catch multiple cds with it.
Cooldown reductions in general are a no brainer. The more active you are, the more active you can be because you get rewarded with more for doing more.

[ASkellington]

Speaking of MSQ on AST, I did a run through of the entirety of 6.0 MSQ as a WAR and then as an AST, the AST run took 3 hours more than the WAR run despite getting instant dungeon queues for every dungeon. I don't think people can say in good faith that solo content/MSQ on healer is fine as it is.

I have done the entirety of the MSQ as a healer. ARR as CNJ/WHM (and again as SCH), HW-EW as AST and can tell you that no, solo content as healer is trash and if the devs want to make this game more "solo friendly" they need to fix that glaring hole.

Anyone who thinks that healer is fine I challenge you to do the same thing. Do tell us how long you lasted.