what makes an MMO fell dead

[magitekLuna]

what mount can you use to afk in Limsa?

Non it's my point.

[Ranhansha]

Agreed on all of it.

• guards, travelling merchants and caravans travelling the roads with the merchants/ caravans maybe also having things for sale that you don't get at every 08/15 merchant in the city,
• a variety of small animals running around in and outside hubs,
  
  Lots of interesting ideas but...
  [Snip cause word limit]

Hitting the nail right on the head. This and much more is needed. Take for example The Azim Steppe. I love that place. The music is amazing, the views are gorgeous and the lore is interesting, so I'd love to explore it and do something, however, what for? There's nothing to do. I just went there once with some friends, sat on a rock and chatted.

From my experience in WoW, which is not much since I played it for a couple of months during WoD (so you see, not the best time), there was always something to find in the maps. Fill the maps with secret treasures with fashion accessories, parasols, glasses, mounts, minions, glamour items that can't be sold, food, materia, gil, tomestone, housing items, orchestrions, emotes, hairstyles, or even new stuff such as instant chocobo dyes and items that temporarily turn you into animals like the ones in Deep Dungeons, I don't know, the sky's the limit. Some of these things have already been said, but it's kind of obvious.

-Add a new kind of long secondary quests, with a pink icon for example so they stand out (many people ignore secondary quests when they complete MSQ) that can be repeated in areas. Maybe these need you to join a party to clear Fates. They could tell you about the past of the area, myths, creatures or whatever. Or they could be similar to Bozja and activate critical encounters with juicy rewards. Or these Fates might give more bicolor gems. Why would you be stingy with those?

- I've said this before on the forums, but, at this rate, just copy WoW's pet combat. Who is playing Lord of Verminion? Keep it if you want, but, seriously, add the pokemon-style battles. Fill the maps with "trainers" and minions and watch everyone go crazy. Obviously, this would require updating, but they already update TT cards, and minions skills for LoV so adding a tournament every now and then wouldn't be that crazy either.

-The areas seem to get livelier simply when they add a BLU patch, but that lasts a couple of weeks. Well, maybe add BLU content every now and then, even if it's not skills.

I don't know, they are developers, they surely are a thousand times more suited for the task than the vast majority of us are , but they must be willing, and they certainly don't seem to be.

[R041]

Its sad that the mentality funny enough are the playerbase gatekeeping themselves rather than the game itself

[RitsukoSonoda]

Hitting the nail right on the head. This and much more is needed. Take for example The Azim Steppe. I love that place. The music is amazing, the views are gorgeous and the lore is interesting, so I'd love to explore it and do something, however, what for? There's nothing to do. I just went there once with some friends, sat on a rock and chatted.

From my experience in WoW, which is not much since I played it for a couple of months during WoD (so you see, not the best time), there was always something to find in the maps. Fill the maps with secret treasures with fashion accessories, parasols, glasses, mounts, minions, glamour items that can't be sold, food, materia, gil, tomestone, housing items, orchestrions, emotes, hairstyles, or even new stuff such as instant chocobo dyes and items that temporarily turn you into animals like the ones in Deep Dungeons, I don't know, the sky's the limit. Some of these things have already been said, but it's kind of obvious.

-Add a new kind of long secondary quests, with a pink icon for example so they stand out (many people ignore secondary quests when they complete MSQ) that can be repeated in areas. Maybe these need you to join a party to clear Fates. They could tell you about the past of the area, myths, creatures or whatever. Or they could be similar to Bozja and activate critical encounters with juicy rewards. Or these Fates might give more bicolor gems. Why would you be stingy with those?

- I've said this before on the forums, but, at this rate, just copy WoW's pet combat. Who is playing Lord of Verminion? Keep it if you want, but, seriously, add the pokemon-style battles. Fill the maps with "trainers" and minions and watch everyone go crazy. Obviously, this would require updating, but they already update TT cards, and minions skills for LoV so adding a tournament every now and then wouldn't be that crazy either.

-The areas seem to get livelier simply when they add a BLU patch, but that lasts a couple of weeks. Well, maybe add BLU content every now and then, even if it's not skills.

I don't know, they are developers, they surely are a thousand times more suited for the task than the vast majority of us are , but they must be willing, and they certainly don't seem to be.

Got around to playing Assassin's Creed Valhalla again. Yeah the wandering NPCs and enemies make the world feel more alive. However the game also has alot of activities scattered throughout each section of the world and also a series of NPCs that provide contracts to do things in zones that appear to be mostly random which doing those gives a reason to return to already explored areas since the rewards aren't bad. You get a currency that can be used to buy stuff Ubisoft put in their cash shop from the lead NPC of these contract givers and their stock rotates weekly but also has an item of the day thing too.

[AnotherPerson]

And right by the first couple of sentences you've just proved my point. The issue here are parties. PARTIES. Aka groups of people whom restrict the player base to their high standards. This is the same kind of hardcore raiding mentality that people give a lot of flak towards the WoW community and it seems the same is done in FFXIV.

Now I realize we cant fault PFs that make groups like this because anyone can do whatever the hell they want; if they want to farm they want to farm, but its also a social problem that its mostly relegated towards the community if the mentality is centered around getting fast clears. And personally it seems like the playerbase wants the dev team to babysit them to solve this problem for them rather than the community deal with their own problems and thats what I mean its sad.

Its sad that the mentality funny enough are the playerbase gatekeeping themselves rather than the game itself, and honestly this is an issue thats difficult to tackle because like I said there's reason for both sides here.

Hold on, let me see if I'm following the topic correctly..

->Devs make fights tougher in later fights of the raid tier
->Players compensate increased difficulty by increasing ILVL requirements to meet this challenge as a way to ease the difficulty of the fight requirement when the party works together to beat the boss
->Players ask the devs for more ways to obtain high ILVL gear to allow more players to join these increased ILVL requirements in PF for later fights of the same raid tier due to the difference in ILVL between their main job and alt jobs after a couple of weeks later
->Proceeds to blame players for having the gall to respond to increasing difficulty by increasing ILVL requirements and condemns them for asking for more gear, saying its the player's fault for increasing standards

???
Did I miss something with your logic? If people want more ways to acquire gear to respond to the higher difficulty challenges and you rebut them by saying it's the parties that are at fault for not wanting to do MIN ILVL fight in PF instead of the devs, it's no longer the players who have a toxic hardcore raider mentality, it's you.

[Shinkuno]

For me, its a few things but mostly when the world itself feels dead in the open. Meaning you constantly see no reason for anyone to be there at all, or most things have no purpose to do. Another thing that makes games feel dead to me is the combat, or dungeons get to repeative, for example if your move set is always three to four buttons and the fighting requires no thought process, other than dodge a rock or dont stand in fire. Feels lazy, and takes out the excitement for me when I play a game. I'm not saying a fight has to be hard in a mmo to not be dead,but it should require you to think with some complexity same with a character or job or even class. Complexity helps a player feel engaged in a fight, and a character/class. If you remove that, we might as well be mindless zombies you know.

Maybe its just me because I am a mental ill girl/stupid but.. thats how I feel about the subject

Dont put yourself down like that, this is a completly normal opinion to have, and why most MMORPG players are not playing FF14. Ive noticed when people praise this game, often they have something like "i like the game because it doesnt feel like a mmorpg" and thats just sad. The playerbase nowadays is mostly non-mmorpg players looking for a visual chatbox they can feed their ego off when people compliment their basic glamours

[Ranhansha]

Got around to playing Assassin's Creed Valhalla again. Yeah the wandering NPCs and enemies make the world feel more alive. However the game also has alot of activities scattered throughout each section of the world and also a series of NPCs that provide contracts to do things in zones that appear to be mostly random which doing those gives a reason to return to already explored areas since the rewards aren't bad. You get a currency that can be used to buy stuff Ubisoft put in their cash shop from the lead NPC of these contract givers and their stock rotates weekly but also has an item of the day thing too.

That's right. I think rewards need to be important. By this I don't mean everything needs to be a 4-man mount or a BiS weapon, (which, honestly, would be cool and wouldn't break the game when we have 19 classes) but I wouldn't want star sparklers, iron ores and 100 gils in every coffer. Players need to feel they are getting something and making progress. That's one of tha main issues with Gold Saucer. Are chocobo races fun? Yeah, for a while. After I trained it, did every challenge and got all the MGP I could, I stopped racing, because I was getting nothing out of it and there's no interaction.

[hunkygladiator]

it's dead because everyone is scared of offending each other in-game

[Carin-Eri]

Interesting how this thread has become almost exclusively about FFXIV.

However, the thread title is "What makes an MMO fall dead" - therefore am going to look at that question itself without the FFXIV focus.

Having played another MMO for over a decade prior to a friend recommending FFXIV, I'll reflect on the issues that pushed me away from that game (with the fact that it's a F2P game in mind):

- Heavy over-reliance on lootboxes

- Overpriced items in their cash shop (£300 'bundles')

- Community manager who produces sloppy news blogs (doesn't proof-read them, posts incorrect dates for releases) and doesn't care, as has been doing this for literally years and has never once even acknowledged the matter. Sadly this tends to suggest that his superiors don't care either. Said CM also tends to be condescending and patronising toward players and completely abandoned that game's official forum - granted, they post some nonsense, about once a year, claiming that they'll "do better", but actions speak louder than words and said person never does "do better".
And secondary to that, the Devs don't listen to their playerbase. At all. There was a particular item that players had been requesting for over eight years. The Devs rarely acknowledged the request and on those rare occasions they did their replies involved insulting crap about their metrics saying that players actually didn't want said item and the game's (cherry-picked) metrics and heavily implied that player requests/opinions are worthless.

- The over-emphasis on producing loot box junk and expensive cash-shop bundles has impacted on actual game development. The Dev team for that game are too busy producing reasons for players to get their credit cards out to actually produce new story content for the game itself.

- Powercreep; another negative byproduct of the over-emphasis on selling stuff. A piece of repeat-play endgame content that used to take approximately 30 minutes to complete can now be done in 11 seconds and I gather the map for that piece of content will quite often glitch out as the game often doesn't actually realise the instance is over.
And to be honest, its possible to complete the entire game in about five days because of this.

- Toxic community. A byproduct of the content being too easy is that players gather in a few particular areas out of boredom. And, in my experience, that led to arguments and trolling.

I do keep in touch with some who still play that game, and I gather from them - and from what I read on social media - that said game isn't in a good place right now despite the Devs claims to the contrary (saying that, the word of cooperate mouthpieces who are paid to only say good things about their game are not worth a great deal in my mind).

[Rilifane]

snip

WoW has always done it to some degree but I think they started doubled down on making the world feel alove around MoP and turned it up to 11 with Dragonflight. It's a great example for plenty of things to do overworld while the world itself is also nicely cluttered to make it even more appealing to go out and do all the things.
Putting it in spoilers because it's a bit lengthy and not really related to the topic but just to give you the idea.

• dragonriding is the new way to fly and you unlock it extremely early into DF. You also collect different dragons for it throughout the campaign/ from achievements and all of them can be customized. The customizations are rewards for a ton of different things: achievements, reputation ranks, drops from rare mobs/ world bosses, side quests, dragon racing, treasures, world drop, dungeon/ raid drops (including LFR). While the last one is instanced, everything else is tied to open world content.
• you have several zone events that each have an internal cooldown of a few hours and pop up frequently over the week. Soup event, Storm's Fury, Trial of Flood/ Elements and Dragonbane Siege give you relevant gear once per week and smaller rewards (still worth doing them afterwards imo) from then on and Elemental Storms give you special currency to trade in for gear, pets, mounts, cosmetics and toys
• you unlock being able to find the first type of open world treasures very early into DF, shortly after landing in the new zone and another type of treasure soon after and a few more types later on at higher renown ranks. They're fairly frequent, sometimes you have a few of them at once popping up on your minimap. They give gold, crafting materials, relics, the special expansion resource and as rare drops things like recipes, currency to acquire more crafting/ gathering knowledge, pets, toys. You also have unique treasures that often don't show on the minimap. Can reward toys, a good chunk of gold or other things.
• Maruuk camp moving through one of the zones and giving you a new set of repeatable quests each time they switch location every few days
• Cobald Assembly as an elite area with unique currency and a kind-of reputation system, you get "rep" by farming the mobs there and the mobs drop arcane orbs which give you different buffs like leech, higher crit, stacking haste, auto-exploding every 10s and so on and the rewards are relevant gear, dragon customizations, crafting recipes and cosmetics
• World Quests on a bi-weekly reset, they include pet battles, dragon racing, minigames like climbing up walls and grabbing relics or rescueing animals, catalogue wild life with a camera, battle content (elite/ world boss like and regular) or just general objectives with a few different ways to fulfill them. They give relevant gear, reputation, good chunks of gold

These are the "DF exclusive" open world things. While World Quests are nothing new, they do include features only found in DF like racing, climbing and catalogue so I've count it as more of a DF-flavoured thing.
But then you also have the content that carried over from expansions ago.

• Rare mobs/ Rare Elites/ World Bosses that pop up regularly and give relevant gear, gold, relics, pets, toys, cosmetics, sometimes also special quest items for rep turn in/ another reward
• pet battles with each zone having their selection and special pets appearing during elemental storms
• side quests with quite a few having relevant rewards beyond gold, exp and leveling gear like pets, dragon customization, toys or cosmetics and most of them giving reputation

While not all of them give you a reason to interact with other players, all of them give a good reason to go out into the open world and I'll not count dragon racing, collecting dragon glyphs and getting peaks here as it only takes place in the air and doesn't really make you visible open world.
Elite areas, zone events, WQs and elite rares/ world bosses do encourage that interaction though. It doesn't have to be written communication like "hi, party for WQ?", just players banding together without a lot of chatting or random invites in areas that involve killing mobs, pulling mobs together so everyone can tap them, healers keeping whoever has aggro alive and silently agreeing on not speed-nuking mobs but always leaving a bit of HP so someone else can get a hit in as well is already nice.
And you don't have to do all or even any these tasks, not even the WQs as renown is not required to e.g. unlock M+/ raids, flying/ flying skills or outstanding gear. But you do have plenty of reasons to do it and get a sense of progression when ranking up, unlocking more customization options, expanding your pet battle team, getting more recipes to cast a wider net on the market for getting gold etc. and the expansion resource is used to buy rewards and expand some of the mini games like rock climbing

You constantly see players in the smaller faction hubs where you buy rewards, turn in relics or unlock renown features and they're nice places to stay for a bit instead of porting back to Valdrakken right away because they feel alive and bustling with the NPCs and their banter/ interaction, critters and very varied wild life in general. And Valdrakken, the main expansion hub, looks downright amazing. I've spent a good 2h riding and flying to snoop around in every corner because there were so many neat or cute little details.
It's a combination of a world that's cluttered in a good way and a lot of things you can do and that have an nice reward but not to the point of being a mandatory treadmill.
They struck a good balance there.

MMOs don't need massive amounts of players but they need overworld tasks with interesting rewards and incentives to do them, a decently cluttered environment to support the impression that the world is alive and being openworld with relatively few loading screens and each zone itself not being too big so people don't spread out too far helps as well. Although the latter isn't a deciding factor, gigantic zones are far more difficult to fill than medium-sized zones in terms of tasks, players and clutter.
Relying on instanced content becomes problematic after a certain point because it simply isolates players too much from each other.
Same as restricting the ways players can easily communicate/ organize (*cough*ingamecalenderwhen?*cough*).

Got around to playing Assassin's Creed Valhalla again. Yeah the wandering NPCs and enemies make the world feel more alive. However the game also has alot of activities scattered throughout each section of the world and also a series of NPCs that provide contracts to do things in zones that appear to be mostly random which doing those gives a reason to return to already explored areas since the rewards aren't bad. You get a currency that can be used to buy stuff Ubisoft put in their cash shop from the lead NPC of these contract givers and their stock rotates weekly but also has an item of the day thing too.

This is a neat system in general as well.
If it's from a pool of things they just rotate through, chances are that rewards will re-appear after some time so it's not like missing out on something makes you miss out forever (and plays into FOMO and feels like you HAVE to do the tasks associated with working towards the rewards). I think non-game relevant rewards like mounts, pets, titles, toys and cosmetics are great for giving an incentive to do something since they're never mandatory but the companies will notice if sales for a specific things die down after some time and can consider putting them into ingame currency reward roulettes.
If somoene isn't buying the reward directly, making them play the game for it is still a win over them neither buying it directly nor playing the game.

I could see this working well with the cheaper stuff, e.g. seasonal event emotes/ housing items/ simple costumes but maybe also rotate the occasional Fantasia into it for our circle of addicts
The fact that you miss out permanently on the free event rewards if you weren't playing at that time has been criticised several times so giving people a reason to engage in open world content to have a realistic chance at getting them for free again seems like a good solution for me. And that emotes etc. are not account-wide so even if you did them on one character, you'll still have missed out on them of any characters you created later on.