I have a question for the "community".

[Raven2014]

It's human nature to silently accept what meets expectations, talk briefly about what exceeds expectations, and complain long and loud about the things that don't meet expectations. The developers aren't unaware of that. It's why developers use a lot of different methods for gathering player feedback, including participation metrics.

I know it's human nature, that's why this post is more about raising awareness. Just because it's human nature doesn't means it's how it should be. I mean ... human society basically is a constant fight about using logic and reasoning to fight against our natural desire and instinct. It's just that ... we always talk about how positive "reinforcement" is a better tool comparing to negative "reinforcement", yet most of the time without thinking we always opt for the latter as our default and natural option.

And maybe it IS the more natural option, doesn't mean it's good or sufficient though.

You know the forum is just a small margin of players right?

For one, I do. For two, this has been brought up so many time that I think it's stale.

Anyone who have been doing relic since 2.0 know for a fact that the relic has been constantly "adjusted" to the trench of the complains as outline in the first post. Whether you think it's a small margin or relevant margin or not, the adjustment and wave of complain matched each other almost perfectly, especially during Eureka/Borza era. It may be a causation, or just a co-relation. But I don't think you can expect a fair judgement where one side have overwhelming representative while the other side is almost invisible.

Like I said somewhere above, politic is a clear real life example. The argument of actual number is not as important as the number of actual engagement. You may believe that the people liking the game are majority (and trust me I do to), but you also need to commute it on human term. When was the last time you were praised for doing a good job? Did you like it? I know I do. How do you feel about being a content creator where the majority of the feedback you receive on your work are trash talking despite the actual result seem to indicate otherwise? How would you think that gonna do to your moral?

[AwesomeJr44]

OP

I feel that you've had a couple of misconceptions when writing this thread.

1) Not everyone likes everything the exact same way. When a change is implemented, part of the playerbase is going to complain. Some people want free handouts like the Manderville weapons. Some people want actual content to do like previous expansions. No matter which one is chosen, complaints are unavoidable. The people who said Bozja/Eureka was bad back when it was current are not necessarily the people saying it was good now.

2) The people complaining right now are the ones unhappy, while the people who are currently happy have no use for feedback. There is not enough motivation for the average person to take the time to make positive feedback if they already have what they want. However, if you are unhappy, you may take the time to write a complaint in a hope that it'll be heard and the problem will be fixed. This is not something you can change simply by wishing it was so. This is basic human nature and to try and fight that is foolish.

3) This isn't a social media website. It is a forum for feedback. While you are free to leave positive feedback if you so desire, it is in no way required, nor is it healthy to attempt injecting positivity into it for its own sake. Trying to create a cycle of positive feedback exclusively for the sake of positivity is either worthless or harmful, not a good thing to be desired. An overabundance of positivity leads to stagnation and decay.

4) The devs have proven that positive feedback is not as effective as negative feedback. (although both have proven to be immensely ineffective at times) It makes common sense that the more effective method will be the more common one, and that's not without good reason. If the devs want more positive feedback, then they should create an environment where positive feedback is the more effective method. And this does not mean ignoring negative feedback. Ignoring negative feedback is how you end up where WoW is.

5) The devs are not our close friends. It is not our role to act as encouragement for them. If they lack motivation or encouragement, they need to solve that for themselves, not get a pep talk from a stranger on the internet.

6) You seem to think that the people here are the types who would want to give lots positive feedback for current systems but don't already do so. Anyone here is here to provide feedback on an issue in the game, doesn't care, or is already gushing over every little thing as if it was god's gift to earth. You're preaching to the choir.

As someone who in general enjoy the game, I counter and talk down a lot of regular complainers on this forum. But today I just realize ... aren't the people like me also a big part of the issue here?

If you still see fellow players who are unhappy with the current state of the game as 'regular complainers' who are also part of an 'issue', then you haven't really reached the epiphany you think you have. While you seem to have realized your mindset is a bad one, you haven't yet seemed to understand that you're still using it even now. If you want to fix an 'issue', perhaps you need to work on freeing yourself from that mindset. Until you do, you will always be a part of 'the issue'.

Despite your claims to the contrary, this thread really does seem like a 'complaining about complainers' thread.

[Raven2014]

2) The people complaining right now are the ones unhappy, while the people who are currently happy have no use for feedback. There is not enough motivation for the average person to take the time to make positive feedback if they already have what they want. However, if you are unhappy, you may take the time to write a complaint in a hope that it'll be heard and the problem will be fixed. This is not something you can change simply by wishing it was so. This is basic human nature and to try and fight that is foolish.

Which is the problem? Foolish, I don't think so, that sound more like an excuse though. Like I said the goal is to raise awareness, whether we gonna do something about is a different matter. Your last sentence above is why everyone is expert at pointing out the problem, but not many willing to take part in a solution.

If you still see fellow players who are unhappy with the current state of the game as 'regular complainers' who are also part of an 'issue',

...

Despite your claims to the contrary, this thread really does seem like a 'complaining about complainers' thread.

It's up to you to take it however you want. I already stated that this thread isn't about "the complainers", and I meant it. But given the nature of the topic, it's impossible to NOT mention them at all. And if just by the mere act of mentioning people from the other side meant I can't stop talking about them ... well, if that's how you see thing, it can't be help. I just hope this thread won't devolve into another one of the gazillion thread trading blame between my side and your side.

To be clear, my opinion about the complainers before, during, and after this thread does not and probably will not change. But that's not what this thread is about, which you seem to insist it for some reason. This is not about the people I don't share the same opinion, this is about realizing the fact "they" are not the only source of the problem (and trust me before today oh how strongly I believe in that). It's about people like me - who disagree with them - are as much part of the issue. Simply due to the fact we have not been doing our party to help the dev better informed, usually because we fall back on the same excuse that you just wrote above.




Again, using politic as an example. The majority of the talk is about blame trading without any one side want to acknowledge their own problem. So here, someone decide to say "hey, instead of keep talking about the other party issue, how about we do some self-reflection?". But even if that goal is intended, as long as the topic is politic itself, you would be essentially asking for the impossible to complete embargo the mentioning of the opposite party in under any circumstance. Like I said, some token mentioned as a reference is un-avoidable, after all if you don't have something to compare to, how can you even self-reflect. But if you or the majority people feel there is no chance of doing that without derail the thread into the old rabbithole, then too bad. I'll just withdraw from the thread in that case, because like I said, I had said more than enough on that particular issue in the other gazillion threads over the years, and I don't plan to do it again in this particular thread.

[AwesomeJr44]

Your last sentence above is why everyone is expert at pointing out the problem, but not many willing to take part in a solution.

Like I said, you have the misconception that the issue you think you found even is an issue that needs to be solved. Not everything is a nail in need of a hammer.

I already stated that this thread isn't about "the complainers", and I meant it. But given the nature of the topic, it's impossible to NOT mention them at all.

Again, like I said, you're assuming that the people on the 'other side' are 'regular complainers' rather than players who are unhappy. You're not banned from mentioning them, but you're showing that you don't understand them when you use terminology like this. Why would someone want to follow your lead if you clearly don't understand them?

So here, someone decide to say "hey, instead of keep talking about the other party issue, how about we do some self-reflection?".

And I'm pointing out that the foundation of the self-reflection you did was flawed. Your OP's points are based on misconceptions.

I just hope this thread won't devolve into another one of the gazillion thread trading blame between my side and your side.

Personally I'd prefer that there wouldn't be any official 'sides' to discussions. Do I agree with some people more than others? Sure, I am more likely to agree with Aveyond than I am with Atelier or Midare. The only actual division I have with other people here is with people who have already given me a reason to dislike them. For example:

- If you're constantly trying to shut down discussions I'm interested in like Striker does, I won't like you.
- If you prove yourself to be unstable like Midare did, I won't like you.
- If you give me an angry rant on a daily basis like VelKallor does, I won't like you.
- If you are consistently intentionally disingenuous like the entirety of the lore forum is, I won't like you.
- If you try to dogpile someone I am on good terms with like everyone under the sun does with Aveyond, I won't like you.

People keep giving me reasons to not like them, and then wonder why I could possibly not like them. Then they wonder why I'm on 'the other side'. I'd be willing to let bygones be bygones with certain people if they stopped giving me reasons to not want to. If people want to have a genuine discussion with me, I'm usually up for it as long as you don't give me a reason to not want to have said discussion. That doesn't mean I guarantee that I will agree with you, but if that's what someone expects from me, that's just unreasonable.

Maybe I should take some pages out of Aveyond's book one of these days and just pretend like certain people don't exist.

[Kaurhz]

Polls would be nice since it gives a sense of direction for the players to vote on the 'direction' of a particular piece of content. It also allows them to gauge developers' intentions.

E.g., 'What would you prefer?'

A - A tomestone grind that allows you a level of flexibility in how you progress the relic.
B - Something akin to Heavensward
C - Exploratory zone(s)

This allows people to vote, and they don't necessarily need to tie this to the forums. Create a lodestone post and allow people to vote provided they have a Square Enix account tied to FFXIV.

Whilst they do listen to feedback, they don't necessarily demonstrate adequately enough that they listen to feedback that goes against their design direction/philosophy e.g., acknowledgment, so this gives people a sense that they are being ignored. Which is the problem with their current approach. It's even more of a problem when people are just downright antagonistic on the forums over something as simple as a difference in opinion. Feels like kindergarten almost.

That being said, people oft' have a sense of nostalgia when it comes to older expansions, regardless of whether or not they disliked them.

Relics are in a bit of a strange position, in that it's the most substantial piece of content on a given expansion (assuming you don't achievement hunt), and it's always the piece of content that is the most contentious. I'm not saying all these groups of people are mutual amongst the complaints but...

- A Realm Reborn, people disliked the books.
- Heavensward, people disliked the FATE farming, and to some varying degree the light farming.
- Stormblood, people disliked for varying reasons. You were forced into a particular subset of content, each zone effectively acting as a reset, it was just glorified FATEs for 90% of the journey for actually obtaining the relic, there was no alternative,
- Shadowbringers, people disliked it because (a few reasons) whilst you had the choice, people didn't like that progressing the relic was more efficient outside of the zone than it was inside for many of the steps (illusion of choice), people disliked the longevity, or more accurately lack thereof with some parts, Castrum Lacus Litore had serious incentivization problems (to the point they had to hotfix in better incentives) <- this caused issues for people progressing the relic later on, people disliked that Delubrum effectively scaled off the usage for fragments, many people didn't use fragments, leading to runs of 40-50 minutes versus 10 minutes.

Neither of these is an exhaustive list, but are a recollection of what I recall at those particular times, or thereafter. I would say, to their flaw they have a bad habit of trying to please all players, but ultimately in doing so, actually please fewer than they did before. But the fact remains people have always complained, and in no small numbers, regardless of their approach.

[Meowdyj]

I'm sure getting tired of these threads where people constantly claim it to be a fact every single player complained about previous relic grinds like Bozja or Eureka. Same goes for the theory of "they listened to us, to complaints and now made the relic grind boring". Only because a group of people didn't like the content they aren't just tossing their ideas and designs. My take on this is that they just don't have the resources for it. Lack of quality has been around us for months in every single aspect of the game.

Maybe most people forget the team behind FF XIV is in creative business unit 3. The same unit that is responsible and has a deadline set for June 22, 2023 FF XVI release. I wouldn't be surprised if Yoshi writes up a formal apology leading up to this date for the lack of quality due time and resource shortage.

[Kooper16]

I'm just here to say that I like this relic step the most. I hated every grind that came before that. I finished ARR and HW relics long after they became irrelevant because I was already close to finishing it. I dropped Eureka after the first zone and I didn't finish that zone until the third came out. I quit Bozja in 3 hours. I hate that they locked fun content behind a massive grind (I heard the alliance raids are fun).

Now I can just upgrade my weapon after getting tomes from content that I would have done anyway. It's a win win for me.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Its pretty simple really. The FFXIV community have no clue what they really want, which is why this is probably one of the hardest audiences to ever please.

Although really you wont ever please everybody in general no matter what you do but especially with this community.

[Kazhar]

I'm sure getting tired of these threads where people constantly claim it to be a fact every single player complained about previous relic grinds like Bozja or Eureka. Same goes for the theory of "they listened to us, to complaints and now made the relic grind boring". Only because a group of people didn't like the content they aren't just tossing their ideas and designs.

This is my opinion too. I don't think they deleted it because of negative posts on the forums. Seems like yet another attempt at turning players against each other and stiffle all kind of negative feedback. Each time we did have some data, Bozja seemed decently popular. Polls on japanese side were favorable on its implementation and Yoshi-P himself said that participation was higher than Eureka.
Even if we look at the feedback at the time, a lot of it was players telling how much better Eureka was, how they wished Bozja was better future-proofed and that Bozja's alternative to grinding relics were much inferior to the other options. It's clear that we had a future where this content could exist in an improved form.
There were definitely a subset who wished for the content to be scrapped and for us to turn back to HW-style relic, but I never felt it was what most people really wanted.

So the narrative that they deleted the content because people complained too much on the forums is rather unconvincing. If they really did, I have concerns about their decision-making process. A game which smooth out every feature to be as inoffensive as possible has no future.

[Silver-Strider]

I typically avoid bad faith threads like this.
"This isn't a complaint thread but I want to point the finger at the community for complaining" doesn't instill much in the way of conversation as it just comes off as standoffish, with most comments becoming either "Well I liked X content" as a defense or otherwise devolve into unintelligible screaming at one another about why they felt their original complaints were justified.

I'm just here to say, move on people and let the thread die.