I have a question for the "community".

[Raven2014]

Originally wanted to post this in the relic thread, but feel it deserve its own because I think it touched on a broader issue. But first, let's me state 2 things:

- First, yes I'm a bit disappointed at the 2nd step of the relic, wishing it can be more involved.
- Second, no this is not another "complain" thread.


With that out of the way. To the people who are saying how they miss Eureka or Bojaz, or how the miss the old grind in the tomestone for relic thread:

Where were you many years ago when each and every of those contents got flak to hell and back?

I feel relic content is one of those area that SE had constantly listen to feedback and try to adjust to player demand:

- People complained they were sick of being told old content after 2.0 and 3.0 old relic and want original content. So you have Eureka.

- People then complained how the first zone was so brainless (it was dubbed as the Netflix train).

- When the sub-sequence zone got harder, people then complain how it break up community and how the Netflix train was more enjoyable.

- People complain about how hard the end zone boss in Eureka were, so in Borza you got the easy bosses in the world and the harder boss is moved into instances.

- People then proceed to complain about how the Borza zone is boring, how the raid is a drag .etc.


I feel like ... SE definitely listen to the community ... but the way we're doing it is purely from a "negative reinforcement" side, so it ends up in a corrupt-a-wish kind of game. People usually say "the people with issue gonna complain a lot, and those who enjoy the content just too busy enjoying the game to say anything". But ... isn't that part of the problem?

- If we truly enjoy a piece of content, should we be more vocal about sending a positive reinforcement? Like saying "hey we like this new content you put out and we like it a lot, we hope to see more of it and a better version of it". But ... this is almost completely absent.

- Instead, every time a new content come out, the feedback channel is always overwhelmed with negative sentiment picking it apart. It's usually only years later when you see people say "oh I actually enjoyed it back then", which I think ... a bit too little too late.


So instead of trying to encourage the dev through positive, let them know the part they did well and should continue to grow, we leave them with this negative-loop that like I said eventually turn into a corrupt-a-wish game.

As someone who in general enjoy the game, I counter and talk down a lot of regular complainers on this forum. But today I just realize ... aren't the people like me also a big part of the issue here? Despite my enjoyment, I just notice I also often don't talk up about the positive thing I enjoy unless I'm arguing with someone from the other side. While I believe I try to counter the negativity, I don't think I really do anything to create a positive vibe either.

[R041]

Where were you many years ago when each and every of those contents got flak to hell and back?

Not on the forum. I was playing it.

[Asphhar]

Not on the forum. I was playing it.

Exactly this.

[Listrella]

I for one was fine with bozja, yes it had problems but all it needed was a few treaks, they didn't need to drop the entire thing. as to a more general answer to your question though, I think if people are satsisfied they tend not so say anything, the people not happy with this now didn't say anything during bozja because they were happy with it. I personalyl hope they bring exploration zones back in the next expansion, with some changes I think it's the ideal solution with of course the option to do relics outside of the exploration zone as welll.

[Raven2014]

Not on the forum. I was playing it.

Exactly, just like me. And the point I think that's why it's also part of the problem

I for one was fine with bozja, yes it had problems but all it needed was a few treaks, they didn't need to drop the entire thing. as to a more general answer to your question though, I think if people are satsisfied they tend not so say anything, the people not happy with this now didn't say anything during bozja because they were happy with it. I personalyl hope they bring exploration zones back in the next expansion, with some changes I think it's the ideal solution with of course the option to do relics outside of the exploration zone as welll.

You can say I'm making a bold assumption, but I feel the state of the relic quest would be much difference if back then instead of a bunch of thread picking a part every aspect of Borza, we had a bunch of thread about how awesome and enjoyable it was. And I'm sure being positive doesn't mean you can't slip in some suggestion for how it can be better, but at the very least, it would give the dev encouragement and assurance they're on the right path.


But instead, they spend all the extra time and resource to create that content, and the only feedback they received was this is wrong! that is wrong! this suck! that's not enjoyably! ... I think it's pretty natural for them come to conclusion that this not the kind of content the community want, so it gets the axe. You may argue it's not the right conclusion, but I don't we can really blame them for arriving at that conclusion either.

[Vahlnir]

I was one of those who complained a great deal about Eureka, and I still don't like it. But I enjoyed Bozja, which in my opinion was Eureka done right. Sure, it was more Fate grinding (that's what most of Eureka was, glorified Fate grinding), but it also had a lot of fun and engaging Fates. I wish that this was how the Fate system worked from the beginning, tbh. It wasn't perfect and it had more than its fair share of issues, but I enjoyed it well enough. I don't think it was a huge ask as far as a relic grind is concerned. In fact, one could argue that it was almost too easy, but they masked it pretty well behind activities in Bozja, in my opinion. It also wasn't as big of a commitment as it was in Eureka, which I enjoyed.

At the end of the day, I just want something to work towards. That is what a relic is to me. A goal. Something I can make daily progress toward and eventually be rewarded. I guess ARR and HW relics were tailored more to my tastes in that regard. When it is trivialized to a point where I can do a few roulettes and call it work complete...nah, that's not my idea of a goal. I do realize that not everyone wants to put in large amounts of effort, however, and that is probably how we got here. I don't like it, but I can understand why. I just don't have to be happy about it. lol

Now onto the last part of the original post. I can't NOT address this.

Honestly, I do enjoy the game enough that I stick around. However, if I am unhappy with a feature, I am very vocal about it, because being quiet does nothing. I am also quick to point out that when something does come up and a lot of people hate it, it is often because the player base asked for it, for better or worse depending on one's point of view. I am also fine with those who may disagree with my takes, but I will remain unshaken 99% of the time. That's how I roll. I speak my mind. I'm not here to please my fellow players, and I don't really care whether anyone agrees or disagree with me. I am here to try and provide feedback about something I care about. I can assure you that it comes from a place of caring, and from experience with other MMOs. I have my reasons, even if it doesn't always make sense to those reading my posts. But in my heart, they are good reasons. I believe in them, and that is what matters to me at the end of the day.

That being said, my grievances toward the game pale in comparison to how I feel some of the community handles negative feedback. It usually starts when a few people are trying to quiet the "dissenters" by telling them to shut up and be grateful, but that does nothing but get them more riled up, and then people are like "SEE? THEY REALLY ARE ANGRY FOR NO REASON!" Yeah...no. When a lot of issues go unaddressed for so long in the form of complete radio silence, or when something comes out half baked, yelling into the void is really all that is left. They don't communicate with us over here. Being polite only gets us so far, if anywhere at all with some things. I'm all for positive and constructive feedback, but that doesn't always work.

I'm all for praising the devs when they deserve it, and I do just that. Seriously, I do. But I am also capable of separating the good from the bad and discussing both. I see a game that has had a drop in quality, and I want them to fix that. Don't really care if anyone agrees or disagrees with that. It's how I feel, and what I believe. This is the place they tell us to go to offer our feedback, so...here we are. Sometimes (a lot of the time) we need to make some noise to get some things done. I won't say that I've always been civil about my own feedback, lord knows that I haven't. But I don't particularly enjoy attempts at being silenced. And that happens a lot around here, toward a fair number of people by a fair number of people.

[Raven2014]

In the past there was stuff to do and the ppl that enjoyed actually playing the game were playing the game while the ppl that wanted stuff without playing the game sat on here complaining. So SE changed things to appease the ppl that didn't want to play the game and now the ppl that were playing the game in the past are on here complaining over the lack of engaging content.

And I think this is what keep up that vicious cycle of negative feedback.

- Got you what you want? Don't say anything.
- The people who don't share the same taste drum it up, making it looks like nobody want what you want.
- You stop getting what you want, now you become the next inline who does the drumming.

Honestly, I do enjoy the game enough that I stick around. However, if I am unhappy with a feature, I am very vocal about it, because being quiet does nothing. I am also quick to point out that when something does come up and a lot of people hate it, it is often because the player base asked for it, for better or worse depending on one's point of view

...

That being said, my grievances toward the game pale in comparison to how I feel some of the community handles negative feedback. It usually starts when a few people are trying to quiet the "dissenters" by telling them to shut up and be grateful, but that does nothing but get them more riled up, and then people are like "SEE? THEY REALLY ARE ANGRY FOR NO REASON!"

Regardless of whether I agree with your assessment or not it's not the point of this thread. In case it's not already abundant clear:

- This is not a thread about complainers. I'm not telling complainers to stop complaining here, god know I did that enough in other thread already. While it's unavoidable to bring up complainers as a reference and comparison on the topic, I'm actually not addressing them, at all.

- The group I'm addressing here are the people who actually have, or had something they like.


If you have something you like and enjoy, then consider spend some effort sending some positive note. Let them know you enjoy it, that you want to see more of it. That doesn't mean you can't give feedback to improve. Feedback is not something that is exclusively belong to complainers, you can be positive and critical at the same time, in fact that's just human management 101.

If you like something, don't just take it for granted and assume the dev will read your mind and continue delivering it. Well, you can, but if we believe we entitle to that, we can't act surprise or angry when one day such content just stop being delivered. After all, if you're the dev and the only voice or feedback you hear about a type content is almost exclusively people trash talking it, you probably will want to stop making that type of content too.

It's almost like different players will have different opinions on what makes good Relic content or something..

Sign, it's almost feel like a lot of people are just skimping the OP without the detail.

- Yes, people can enjoy the content.
- yes, people can complain about the content.

That is not the point here. The point here is one side spend a lot of effort in making their voice heard while the others stay in almost silence. The point here is because of that ...

If they stopped trying to bend down to players who feel entitled to every reward but refuse to put the time or effort into it, the PvE content of the game would be way more interesting.

ever wonder why? This like 2 guys liking the same girl, but:

- Guy A: actually spend the effort of courting the girl
- Guy B: would do nothing except telling himself "one day she'll realize how much I love her and notice me".

Which guy, A or B, that you think will more likely have a wedding at the end? And I'm definitely getting some "Guy B" vibe from some of the replies here.

[RitsukoSonoda]

And I think this is what keep up that vicious cycle of negative feedback.

- Got you what you want? Don't say anything.
- The people who don't share the same taste drum it up, making it looks like nobody want what you want.
- You stop getting what you want, now you become the next inline who does the drumming.

Yup, it's a vicious cycle.

However if you're looking for tinfoil hat theories.

This could be the latest in the long history of changes over time that seem geared towards poaching players from other non MMO or RPG player bases.

Or

This could be the next step in Yoshi-P wanting to distance this title from the term JRPG.

There... Take your pick ;3

[Supersnow845]

Bozja and eureka speak by their player retention; Bozja had 62% of its capped population at the time reach at least Zadnor, eureka had 58% of its capped population reach pyros

Field content has been the second most completed content behind daily roulettes since it’s launch, more people do it than PVP, savage, capping crafters, deep dungeons

People liked (or at least spent a lot of time) in field content

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

I feel relic content is one of those area that SE had constantly listen to feedback and try to adjust to player demand:

- People complained they were sick of being told old content after 2.0 and 3.0 old relic and want original content. So you have Eureka.

- People then complained how the first zone was so brainless (it was dubbed as the Netflix train).

- When the sub-sequence zone got harder, people then complain how it break up community and how the Netflix train was more enjoyable.

- People complain about how hard the end zone boss in Eureka were, so in Borza you got the easy bosses in the world and the harder boss is moved into instances.

- People then proceed to complain about how the Borza zone is boring, how the raid is a drag .etc.


I feel like ... SE definitely listen to the community ... but the way we're doing it is purely from a "negative reinforcement" side, so it ends up in a corrupt-a-wish kind of game.


-every time a new content come out, the feedback channel is always overwhelmed with negative sentiment picking it apart. It's usually only years later when you see people say "oh I actually enjoyed it back then", which I think ... a bit too little too late.

Like, FOR REAL!

Whats kind of sad here, is that many times when the Expansion Dropped, there were people who have made positive threads, and even tried to play neutral, making their voices heard how they felt and how they enjoyed the expansion.
But just like on threads with people complaining, in comes the Opposite Opinion. Which in my opinion is not a bad thing. TO every positive, there is a negative. TO each who love, there will be Each who hate. Its natural.
But the problem Ive observed is: at least on these forums, if you arnt part of the Negative crowd, you are a bad person. Shill, White Knight, Fanboy, Have Bad-taste, dont know what a good game is, your just as bad as WoW, accused of defending the game and calling it perfect, etc. And...this is by the very same people who complain about being dismissed and Silenced and feel attacked and shutdown...going around doing the exact same things to other people.

Both Sides and Opinions have a Place.
And neither side should be attacked. Disagreeing and debate, is not an attack.
With Internet Culture, I think people have really forgotten...or probly dont even know this at all. Just...Im right you are wrong. (Even if they are wrong lol)

But anyway, I think both sides should try to be more Constructive with their Opinions.
We all want the game to stay awesome and succeed. Best way to do that is to show how we feel, but also be Constructive: as in offer ideas. And not freak out and put down the team just because YOUR vision didnt happen. In case you forgot there is MILLIONS of Players in this game, and many different people with different opinions.
The team wont always hit the mark, but you can tell they do care, and they are trying. Telling them they arnt trying, and saying they dont listen, is in fact false, and just a slap in their face.
Plenty of times they gave us what we asked for...just to complain and demand more, while putting them down.
If in fact they do kind of ignore NA...I can see why.

Anyway Im dragging on with this Word Salad.
Just be nice, and be Constructive.