Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Ggwppino]

Far as I can tell, there's no objective reason that New SMN NEEDS to be more complex and ISN'T working as it is.

the fact is that it is not necessary for the players to know how to get to a perfect optimization of the class, the game does not require it. But it should be sacrosanct that a player who wants to main a class (perhaps a class that used to be one way and now is completely different) be encouraged to do more and improve.
The smn shouldn't be more complex in general, the smn should provide that players who want to play pok*mon maybe want more than just having elon musk's autopilot.
So having depth in a class leads to more fun for more people and not just one part, basically currently you're foreclosing people from having fun and that's not good.

All the data suggests that it's working as it is and is very well liked and used by the community.

I assume you saw the data on fflog. Well, fflog is used by a community of people who play high-level content. This is clearly a hypothesis, but until it is refuted there is always the benefit of the doubt: high-level players are cynical, why having to bang your head with the rdm if with the same dps there is the smn which has the autorun? With the Blm is the same, if it competes for the caster position and not for melee as a raid does not need so much dps to be cleared. I would like to see if the same percentages would remain if the smn had the dps it deserves based on the producers' statements:
"Adjustments for each job are made individually based on the damage value, which is the standard value according to the item level, based on the difficulty of operation of each job, the difficulty of rotation, the number of support actions, and the details of their effects".
https://jp.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...380.1646902175.

The smn is a full-blown bypass of the minimum skill requirements that a high-level raid requires in general and therefore cynically convenient.

[Renathras]

the fact is that it is not necessary for the players to know how to get to a perfect optimization of the class, the game does not require it. But it should be sacrosanct that a player who wants to main a class be encouraged to do more and improve.

Again: Why?

I'm not asking this over and over to be obnoxious. I'm asking it over and over to show that it ISN'T nor "should" it be "sacrosanct". There's no why to it. No explanation forthcoming. Not reason it needs to be true or must be true.

(perhaps a class that used to be one way and now is completely different)

Once more: Different argument.

I already agree that Old SMN should be in the game still in one form or another. That isn't an argument for why New SMN shouldn't exist.

The smn shouldn't be more complex in general, the smn should provide that players who want to play pok*mon maybe want more than just having elon musk's autopilot.

2x "should" in that statement. WHY?

So having depth in a class leads to more fun for more people

For SOME people.

More is debatable, considering SMN is currently the most played Caster. One must assume at least SOME of that majority are having fun. Turns out, a TON of people have "more fun" with a class that doesn't "have depth". What evidence do you have that more depth = more fun for more people? Were more people playing SMN before the rework or after it?

and not just one part, basically currently you're foreclosing people from having fun and that's not good.

a) No, you're not. There are plenty of other Jobs if people want something harder. Contrast Healers where they're all literally the same rotation.

b) YOU'RE foreclosing people from having fun who like simpler Jobs. Again, SMN is the most played Caster right now. A lot of those people are having fun with it and you seek to rob them of their fun - foreclose them from having fun. How is that good?

Well, fflog is used by a community of people who play high-level content. This is clearly a hypothesis, but until it is refuted there is always the benefit of the doubt: high-level players are cynical, why having to bang your head with the rdm if with the same dps there is the smn which has the autorun? With the Blm the same goes if he competes for the caster position and not for melee as a raid does not need so much dps to be cleared.

This is the point, though - if high level players wanted "the challenge", they'd be playing BLM not SMN. "Why play the harder Job when you could play the easier one?" implies that people PREFER EASIER JOBS. Again, if you only get people playing hard Jobs when you FORCE THEM INTO IT, it means people DON'T LIKE harder Jobs. I'm not sure how better to say "hard Job's aren't fun for the majority" than that.

Moreover: Logs also catch people in 4 mans and 24 mans. That's probably the best measure of the playerbase as a whole. Let's have a look.

Euphrosine: 85,060 SMNs

The next highest is DNC at around 75,500. RPR and RDM are just under 70k, respectable. Where's BLM? Oh, right: 39,474 as of this writing.

Every metric we have and all the data we have any kind of access to says that SMN is the most played DPS Job. It's not just high end players being lazy on farms. Top to bottom, when given the choice of what DPS Job to play, SMN is winning every time. It's winning with hardcore players that SUPPOSEDLY want a hard challenge and high skill ceiling. It's winning with the casual crowd that doesn't care about min-maxing or that SMN does more damage than RDM. It's winning by players with Extreme clears and people who have never set foot outside of the MSQ.

We see a similar pattern with Healers (WHM is the most played) and Tanks (WAR and PLD - now also considered "braindead" are the most played), and even within the subroles of DPS RPR, DNC, and SMN (all considered the easiest in Melee, Ranged, and Caster, respectively) are the most played. An often asked question on Reddit is "What Tank/Healer/Melee/Ranged/Caster/DPS is the easiest?" People aren't asking that question so they can avoid the Jobs they're told are easy.

All this should tell you something.

And the something it should tell you is not "people are lazy" (though that IS true); it should tell you people find easy Jobs fun and desirable.

And even if you think people are often wrong: So what? If it's what THEY WANT, then you shouldn't be taking that from them. Especially while you still HAVE Jobs like MNK and BLM. And again, I AGREE that Old SMN should be readded to the game in some way, so that's not a counter here.

I would like to see if the same percentages would remain if the smn had the dps it deserves based on the producers' statements:
"Adjustments for each job are made individually based on the damage value, which is the standard value according to the item level, based on the difficulty of operation of each job, the difficulty of rotation, the number of support actions, and the details of their effects".

And what makes you think it doesn't? Clearly, they've had several chances to nerf it if they thought it was exceeding their desires. The obvious answer is it's where they deem it should be based on difficulty x number of support actions x details of their effects.

The smn is a full-blown bypass of the minimum skill requirements that a high-level raid requires in general and therefore cynically convenient.

Irrelevant.

If the high end players wanted high skill ceiling, hard Jobs as you say they do, they wouldn't be playing the easiest Job in the game.

That argument makes literally no sense.

"I want everything to be high skill ceiling, otherwise it's not fun."
"So which one are you going to play tonight?"
"The easiest one in the game with a super low skill ceiling."

That makes zero sense.

I LOATHE this argument because it's just such a bad argument. That people want something so much, they...uh...actively avoid it if at all possible. <_<

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Once more:

There are a LOT of "should"s in your post. But I'm not asking for shoulds.

I'm asking for WHY.

[Ggwppino]

Again: Why?

For a matter of numbers. X want to play the drg. All and x enjoy playing the drg. Y people play the drg one way, and Z people another. Y people enjoy playing the drg in a relaxed way, while Z people enjoy continuing to improve and try to get to use the drg in the most perfect way possible. they are 2 different ways of having fun but everyone has fun.
I changed class because the argument does not apply to smn, but in general.

"I want everything to be high skill ceiling, otherwise it's not fun."
"So which one are you going to play tonight?"
"The easiest one in the game with a super low skill ceiling."

the cynicism lies in the clear. I want to clear at any cost. Then I enjoy my main class at another time when I already got the equip.

[Renathras]

For a matter of numbers. X want to play the drg. All and x enjoy playing the drg. Y people play the drg one way, and Z people another. Y people enjoy playing the drg in a relaxed way, while Z people enjoy continuing to improve and try to get to use the drg in the most perfect way possible. they are 2 different ways of having fun but everyone has fun.
I changed class because the argument does not apply to smn, but in general.

So your argument is an unknown people want to play a simple way, an unknown people like to play a complex way, the simple way can't clear content so isn't viable, so only the unknown people (Z, I guess?) get to have fun and do anything meaningful in the game.

And without knowing what X, Y, or Z are...you think that's preferable? What if Z is 500 people while Y is 500,000? And those 500,000 aren't able to do any content above MSQ because they don't play the Job at any high level?

Maybe you mean Y and Z are both able to clear content...but in that case, you've run into the BLM vs SMN case where BLM is clearly able to clear content, but even you swap away from it. CLEARLY Z is either not a big number or Z wants to be Y while acting like they are not.

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There are so many unknowns in there...

Here's the thing, at the end of the day, we don't all get exactly what we want. I love GNB's aesthetic, but I dislike its mechanics. So I have a choice: Either play the Job I like the idea of but hate the mechanics the whole time, or play a different Job I may like the aesthetics of less but that I enjoy mechanically. I kinda hate WAR's aesthetic. Never been a fan of berserker type stuff. But if I'm doing some Extreme or something the first time as a Tank, I'm generally going to do it on WAR, because I enjoy the playstyle and it's good for learning encounters, and I've gotten to where I just dropped GNB because it was too much work and I wasn't enjoying playing it. (Picking up PLD now since it's not an absolute bore to play like it used to be, so that's nice. Reminds me a bit of when I first started it in ARR and had fun with it then, too.)

UNLESS the optimization produces ZERO additional damage, then there aren't cases of "most perfect way possible" and "relaxed way" existing side by side. One or the other is abandoned. Either the super perfect way is so pointless no one does it, or the relaxed way isn't viable. If they're both viable, people stop playing the super perfect way, just as players abandon BLM for SMN if SMN is viable.

I went from RDM in ShB to SMN in EW because they made RDM more technical and annoying and SMN became better and more enjoyable. /shrug

[KatherineOrnitier]

Each role should have Easy, Mid and hard/complex job when it comes to it's rotation.
And they all should be rewarding when hitting your buttons correctly. But the hard/complex jobs should reward a bit more. Either in damage, utility, etc.

The problem I have is there is that they're simplify jobs while also doing the same to the encounters.
And yes I know they have ult for hard encounters but that doesn't fix the job part.
There should be a flow of easy to hard content and easy to hard jobs. And they aim the easier one towards new players so they're not overloaded.

[Ggwppino]

I already agree that Old SMN should be in the game still in one form or another. That isn't an argument for why New SMN shouldn't exist.

Who said it shouldn't exist. I'm saying that it needs, to make all the people who play it and who played it happy, its own mechanics that it currently doesn't have and that this can be deepened. It has no mechanics of its own, it is factual. When you do a rework, one that's so drastic, at least it's expected that it won't be emptied.

Moreover: Logs also catch people in 4 mans and 24 mans. That's probably the best measure of the playerbase as a whole. Let's have a look.

Euphrosine: 85,060 SMNs

The next highest is DNC at around 75,500. RPR and RDM are just under 70k, respectable. Where's BLM? Oh, right: 39,474 as of this writing.

There are a lot of people playing smn in casual content. And it would be strange otherwise, the titan's ass is so beautiful. The dopamine that gives the new smn is not given by any other jobs. I'm someone who controls goddamn gods!

"Why play the harder Job when you could play the easier one?" implies that people PREFER EASIER JOBS

Yes, but in a negative meaning. Implies Minimum Effort, Maximum Result. SMN is so unfair to other casters that it would be crazy not to exploit it: it has few casts, has a lot of range, has no resources to manage and optimize and has the dps that makes no sense. It's like fish in a barrel. An opportunity too tempting

What if Z is 500 people while Y is 500,000?

So? even if there was only one, if you structure the class in such a way that it has mechanics that can be explored and then structure the class on multiple levels, you bring it back as well. Then the point is not that it must be impossible to play, the point is that it is a flat class.

And those 500,000 aren't able to do any content above MSQ because they don't play the Job at any high level?

In general if you want to play relaxed it's because you don't want to play the high-level content, but if someone really wanted to, it would be enough to raise the personal bar a little. Nobody forbids it. FF14 has lots of content for all levels. If you approach playing high-level content it's because you intend to surpass yourself and the developers. My first year of playing I didn't even know what the Savages were and I had fun anyway, not optimizing my ruin 4. The BIS is useless except to testify that you are committed and enjoyed doing it. also because at each tier the craftable equipment is better.

You like the class (Me too, but for other reasons), but have you ever experienced the feeling and fulfillment of having mastered this class? I doubt. Weren't you looking for this feeling? Great, but why deprive me, who have always adored this class, this feeling? What have I done to Yoshi-P other than not having a ps5? would it have changed anything for you? I doubt. would it have changed anything for all the others who think like you? I doubt. The point is that the class itself needs to have that depth (not necessarily a fucking black hole) in order to improve. But it is not possible that on Day 1 that I play a class on Day 365 I have not had any progress because it is precisely the class that denies it to me.
There are classes that are more complicated than others to play in a relaxed way, so the curve starts from 5, 20, 100? All right. Are there some classes that have a more complicated optimization than others, with an exponential curve while others go up more slowly? All right. but heck it should be a curve not the cosmic nothingness. Also, why does SQE flatten them so drastically?
Is it that necessary? Wouldn't it be enough to reduce the dps check, instead of removing everything from all classes? But what would hard content be?
I would understand if it was a bullet hell, an action rpg or a pvp game where rotation is not so important for the gameplay.
But the high-level contents of ff14 are very static and predictable, like the classic mmorpgs, perhaps even more accentuated in this game. Remove the rotation, look at the landscape. https://youtu.be/9eF7YkkekhQ?t=138

[Valence]

Hard to decipher, massive thread full of collapsibles within collapsibles

I was about to write an essay on my own but this is just getting out of hand for very little.

The thing you do not seem to get is that I am arguing for inclusivity in all jobs. Inclusivity means high accessibility (low floor) and a decent amount of intricacies/depth, or difficulty of perfect execution (ceiling). You took at some point the example of RDM and acknowledged that this was possible to do earlier, for an example. With that in mind, no matter the jobs that people like, they'll be able to find their own niche there, whether they're casual players, midcore, hardcore, top tier raiders, or handicapped players. If this passes for "forcing inclusivity on all jobs down the throat of players" to you, then I'm legitimately concerned about the twisted logic behind. In opposition, you have been arguing to select a couple of jobs and make them very exclusive to low ceiling models. Who's trying to force what there exactly?

Another clarification: I do not believe the slightest in "easy", "normal" and "hard" job difficulties and categories, for that there are just silly and difficulty is so subjective on such broad scopes that it's just laughable to even consider. I merely used this to demonstrate how self contradictory your arguments are all the time. For instance, if you introduce your easy, normal and hard model to every role, and therefore argue for "easy" jobs living within the same roles alongside harder ones, even though difficulty is hella subjective, with your own reasoning a lot of players will choose the path of least resistance, even raiders. Ergo, you're encouraging a model where job ratios of play get even more lopsided than they already are.

I am not even gonna touch the talents/spec tree considerations seeing how well balanced games that use those are.

I have never been dodging the question, you're just not reading the answers.

EDIT: UGH!!!


So...you took a quote, apologized for doing it, then brought it up a second time as an attack?

Like...are you for real?

Aren't you pushing it a little? First you ask people to stop using "braindead", which I even agreed to and apologized for, and then you casually proceed to use it yourself in your next post. When I point it out, you choose to whine because I'm attacking you with it? Really?


Edit: and after this, you're also one to talk for logical fallacies... What a nice way to assume that all the likes I get are from the same forum users? And what about your argumentum ad populum when you use the amount of play ratios for SMN/etc as proof for whatever you're trying to prove? The gal of some people...

[Valence]

Each role should have Easy, Mid and hard/complex job when it comes to it's rotation.
And they all should be rewarding when hitting your buttons correctly. But the hard/complex jobs should reward a bit more. Either in damage, utility, etc.

No thank you. I've had enough of that job discrimination based on ludicrously subjective values of difficulty. It's lasted since the dawn of time, enough is enough.

[Dahlinea]

...

And you're failing to understand that no Colourful Mage the devs introduce will stop people that play SMN to complain about its "no effort" state (because "braindead" is offensive, apparently, despite being the right word for the job right now).
People been justifiably complaining about this trend of the devs in over simplifying job core mechanics for some time now. Now we get an extreme case of a job being reworked and getting all its verticality removed in the process and FOR ABSOLUTLY NO REASON. This is no accessibility at all, for those who want to claim it as such, and people already gave examples of jobs that feature a better a idea of accessibility, like DNC or RDM. The job needed fixes to pet actions' responsiveness and an eased opener, which nearly every old SMN player agreed about it.
The devs created the right tools, the good animations and you can see traces of feedbacks the players gave for the job in the past, but the execution of the job they put out is terrible, the baseline being is your near best approach to the job, leaving no room for players even trying to extract more of it besides one or two tweaks.

You call our arguments subjective but all you did up until now is using your biased conceptions of what the jobs should be as something objective. You're being subjective as hell for the most part of this thread as well.
Also player count doesn't mean anything. If it did, BLM would've been reworked to be a braindead job ages ago.

Who are you?

I don't know man. You said I was like a cultist or something back there.

[Renathras]

[EDIT: Actually going to put this up front because I think this IS important and a perspective often missed a year on:]

And you're failing to understand that no Colourful Mage the devs introduce will stop people that play SMN to complain about its "no effort" state (because "braindead" is offensive, apparently, despite being the right word for the job right now).

Then the complainers are hopeless, I guess. /shrug

The irony to me is, there were some pretty famous SMN players that played SMN in the media tour and were saying it was what they've wanted SMN to be forever and were so happy the Devs took the feedback and made it. So this cuts both ways.

An example here, and the first person I saw review SMN for EW, Larryzaur, SMN since ARR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uk-4VaET6A

And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNG1QNQPlNE

And note from all the comments: Not everyone just hates the Job, either. A lot of people were stoked both before it came out and after.

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Each role should have Easy, Mid and hard/complex job when it comes to it's rotation.
And they all should be rewarding when hitting your buttons correctly. But the hard/complex jobs should reward a bit more. Either in damage, utility, etc.

The problem I have is there is that they're simplify jobs while also doing the same to the encounters.
And yes I know they have ult for hard encounters but that doesn't fix the job part.
There should be a flow of easy to hard content and easy to hard jobs. And they aim the easier one towards new players so they're not overloaded.

I agree with this with the caveat that it should always be utility. Something we've learned is that Jobs that don't meet the damage are blacklisted, so that's no go. Harder Jobs can't be rewarded with extra damage, but they CAN be rewarded with extra utility.

In ShB, SMN was harder than BLM, but didn't do more damage (it actually was balanced around doing a little less - they kept nerfing some potencies whenever it would nose passed BLM), but it offered some healing, a party damage buff, and a battle raise.

The balance should ensure that everything is VIABLE for clearing the content (damage), but allowing harder to execute things some additional perks for that difficulty - but with the caveat that when not played well, they'd be outdamaged by the lower skill Jobs.

There are a lot of people playing smn in casual content. And it would be strange otherwise, the titan's ass is so beautiful.

You know what?

I'm just going to stop here because I think this is something we can all agree on.

[Though I'll note - no, I don't get a "sense of fulfillment" by mastering a DPS rotation. My sense of fulfillment comes from clearing encounters and executing mechanics, not from spending hours on a target dummy to the point I remember my rotation just like pressing 1111 and it's become second nature. I get zero satisfaction from DPS rotations in a general sense. None. I like some spell/attack visual and sound effects - using 3x Atonement on PLD feels good to me because I love how visceral the sound of the slashes is "Shunk....SHUNK!!", and likewise Double Down, the big red X and massive explosion sound...but I could not care less that it was "perfectly executed" or not. I like how some abilities combine together like Recitation, Adloquium, and Deployment Tactics on SCH, for example, but because of how they combine, not because they're a "rotation". I derive no joy from that aspect at all, no. Jobs like SMN allow players who don't care for that "feeling" to still execute them at optimal levels and do the actual things they enjoy with them. This is why one should exist in each role...but no more than one, because more isn't needed. The rest can be as complex as desired and it doesn't matter. I've played most Jobs in this game, executed "the perfect opener"...meh. It's not hard, it's just...boring. Tedious.]

.

We aren't going to agree overall, and that's fine. My point's been made:

There's no reason that all Jobs DO need to have high skill ceilings AND there's nothing wrong with New SMN.

We agree that Old SMN should be in the game in at least some form, and we agree that Titan's ass is majestic.

incomprehensible tirade

Yawn.

Not interested.

You refuse to answer simple questions and just make personal attacks. When you're ready to try answering the questions, we'll continue. Here are the questions, with nothing else here since you get so easily distracted and take any advantage to avoid them, so I'll give you nothing else this time:

Why must all Jobs have a skill high skill ceiling?
Why is that important?
Why is that necessary?

You call our arguments subjective but all you did up until now is using your biased conceptions of what the jobs should be as something objective. You're being subjective as hell for the most part of this thread as well.

No, I've justified my reasoning. I've said WHY there should be an easy Job in each role. I've cited statistics that we DO have access to - that is, data/facts. Neither of these things are subjective.

Meanwhile, when I ask for the WHY from anyone on the other side, I get either shoulds (from the more cordial and rational people) or insults (from the less cordial and rational people). It'd be one thing if I just said "there should be easy Jobs", and left it at that. But I haven't. I've said why it's important, what an easy Job in each role accomplishes, and cited data showing that the playerbase in majority also wants easy Jobs to exist. The only should that I then apply is that we shouldn't do something that the majority would find disagreeable.

Also player count doesn't mean anything. If it did, BLM would've been reworked to be a braindead job ages ago.

Where did I say playercount means Jobs need to be reworked?

I'm saying if a lot of people are playing a Job, they PROBABLY enjoy it and it's PROBABLY not hot garbage.

I don't know man. You said I was like a cultist or something back there.

Source?