Simple changes that would tremendously help PvP

[Valence]

If you remade whole skill sets from jobs, with them having very few skills (so ways to play, react), just to make the whole package more easy to attract a broader audience, you did dumbed down a game mode.

By having the skill floor very close to the skill ceiling, if you don’t call that dumbing down a game I don’t know what is tbh.

The complexity and skill expression doesn't exclusively rely on the amount of buttons. If that's truly what you think, then you probably still have much to learn about the mode.

[True-to-Caesar]

Unfortunately, it does
Takes FF11 for example, Ninja utsusemi Ni is basically 3 perfect dodge to avoid any magical or physical attacks
However, with complicate maneuver of Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and Hide, THF can ignore utsusemi effect and instant kill the Ninja which is improved version of Ninja.
There only 2 THF able to make it happen in actual PvP
FF14 4.0 has a great example too, the Machinest Wombo combo under correct maunver can zero out a 35K HP warrior (pretty much current SAM lb but it is result of player control)
Number of buttons do matter

Not just the number of buttons but having meaningful ones, cooldowns to manage during fights, so on and so forth. There’s none of that here.

Sprint having no cooldown is a prime example of dumb gameplay, you have access to a permanent escape tool, there’s 0 thought process or decision making here. It’s mainly the -oh shite- button.

The complexity and skill expression doesn't exclusively rely on the amount of buttons. If that's truly what you think, then you probably still have much to learn about the mode.

What is there to learn in the current mode ? Besides watching a SAM Chiten buff and knowing when to retreat I genuinely don’t see any complexity or depth here, again the objective was to dumb down the mode to attract a broader audience. Nothing else.

It worked but with a cost.

When I played Mordhau/Chivalry 1, you didn’t have as many keybinds as MMOs and yet the fights could be complex, because even if you like the gameplay or not, there’s depth and complexity. Moves to learn, improving your reaction time. Knowing the maps, weapons, classes special abilities to deal with them.

In both games there was a long learning curve and I enjoyed it because you could witness a real pay off at the end. A big difference between when you started and where you are at the end of the learning process.

I find none of that here because it’s just not made with depth/complexity in mind. Dota is another example, few skills yes, but there’s still depth and many things to learn.

[Cidel]

Battle high only worked in feast/CC because-

Please tell me when Battle high was ever in Feast/CC.

[Valence]

What is there to learn in the current mode ? Besides watching a SAM Chiten buff and knowing when to retreat I genuinely don’t see any complexity or depth here, again the objective was to dumb down the mode to attract a broader audience. Nothing else.

It worked but with a cost.

When I played Mordhau/Chivalry 1, you didn’t have as many keybinds as MMOs and yet the fights could be complex, because even if you like the gameplay or not, there’s depth and complexity. Moves to learn, improving your reaction time. Knowing the maps, weapons, classes special abilities to deal with them.

In both games there was a long learning curve and I enjoyed it because you could witness a real pay off at the end. A big difference between when you started and where you are at the end of the learning process.

I find none of that here because it’s just not made with depth/complexity in mind. Dota is another example, few skills yes, but there’s still depth and many things to learn.

I hate to ask this usually, but at what rank are you playing usually? You recognize that some other games can have a good range of skill expression, yet don't want to acknowledge it there. I feel like everybody here suffers from heavy dunning kruger.

I probably have over 1K games of CC and several hundreds of old feast, yet I'm still learning every day. I can feel the improvement spurs at times.

[RyanCousland]

hmmm i might be wrong but what i believe Val is saying is that theres a difference in tactic/playstyle that in a way makes up for the loss of buttons which in turn requires the player to be resourceful due to this change as well as the maps

example being when 2 melees fought lets say SAM vs DRG you didnt have to worry about a 1hit ko from SAM but the burst itself and how to mitigate meanwhile during the current pvp if you are not aware of its LB youre pretty much screwed this in turn requires the player to know all job skills, while before 6.1 this knowledge was indeed useful it wasnt that big of a necessity for the average to somewhat decent player now granted in past expansions tactics were indeed important but it seems 6.1 has put more of a priority on tactics

now full disclosure im not an expert on melee so my example is more than likely flawed when it comes to the minutia of a SAM vs DRG but its the general idea that im trying to articulate, PLD and tanks are the only class/role i have confidence in discussing also with that being said i do miss SHB pvp and i saw vids on SB and am super jelly of people who got to play in that era

[Valence]

hmmm i might be wrong but what i believe Val is saying is that theres a difference in tactic/playstyle that in a way makes up for the loss of buttons which in turn requires the player to be resourceful due to this change as well as the maps

example being when 2 melees fought lets say SAM vs DRG you didnt have to worry about a 1hit ko from SAM but the burst itself and how to mitigate meanwhile during the current pvp if you are not aware of its LB youre pretty much screwed this in turn requires the player to know all job skills, while before 6.1 this knowledge was indeed useful it wasnt that big of a necessity for the average to somewhat decent player now granted in past expansions tactics were indeed important but it seems 6.1 has put more of a priority on tactics

now full disclosure im not an expert on melee so my example is more than likely flawed when it comes to the minutia of a SAM vs DRG but its the general idea that im trying to articulate, PLD and tanks are the only class/role i have confidence in discussing also with that being said i do miss SHB pvp and i saw vids on SB and am super jelly of people who got to play in that era

What I'm saying is that there is a whole world of difference between a crystal player and a plat player, and a whole world between low crystals and top rankers. If the skill ceiling was so low and only tied to the number of buttons in the mode, then the results would be far different than what is already pretty obvious to anybody that's played above diam.

[True-to-Caesar]

I hate to ask this usually, but at what rank are you playing usually? You recognize that some other games can have a good range of skill expression, yet don't want to acknowledge it there. I feel like everybody here suffers from heavy dunning kruger.

I probably have over 1K games of CC and several hundreds of old feast, yet I'm still learning every day. I can feel the improvement spurs at times.

What’s the point of a ranked mode when people literally win-trade and cheat their way up?

You also don’t need to play ranked to see the core failures of a PvP mode. It’s similar to the «you need to play 1000h and the game gets good!» argument. Why would I waste more of my time when other games do it much much better ?

It’s fine if you enjoy it, I honestly don’t and for good reason : plenty of better options out there with actual PvP focus and regular work done with updates.

None of them are MMOs because it’s genuinely the worst genre for PvP. Tried it with many MMOs and the conclusion is the same everytime.

If FFXIV was a reference for good PvP, we wouldn’t even have this discussion.
And they sure as hell wouldn’t have gone through this whole revamp because the mode was dead.

[Valence]

What’s the point of a ranked mode when people literally win-trade and cheat their way up?

You also don’t need to play ranked to see the core failures of a PvP mode. It’s similar to the «you need to play 1000h and the game gets good!» argument. Why would I waste more of my time when other games do it much much better ?

It’s fine if you enjoy it, I honestly don’t and for good reason : plenty of better options out there with actual PvP focus and regular work done with updates.

None of them are MMOs because it’s genuinely the worst genre for PvP. Tried it with many MMOs and the conclusion is the same everytime.

Why are you shifting the goalposts? I was replying on the supposedly low ceiling of the mode, but now you're changing your position and telling me that having to play to actually get some skill is tantamount to wasted time. So, make up your mind? Do you want a mode with a good skill expression and high ceiling that requires practice to get good at, or do you want a mode with no ceiling that you can master after 10 hours?

If other modes do it better for you, then by all means, don't waste your time on this mode that you despise instead of whining here when you don't even have approached what the mode actually has to offer at higher level? Like, I could understand that somebody that actually cares about the game, the mode and everything, but has serious issues with the design or whatever, would give feedback and complain about it, but somebody that has decided that pvp in MMOs is the worst and that XIV pvp has always been bad anyway, it truly boggles the mind.

[True-to-Caesar]

Why are you shifting the goalposts? I was replying on the supposedly low ceiling of the mode, but now you're changing your position and telling me that having to play to actually get some skill is tantamount to wasted time. So, make up your mind? Do you want a mode with a good skill expression and high ceiling that requires practice to get good at, or do you want a mode with no ceiling that you can master after 10 hours?

If other modes do it better for you, then by all means, don't waste your time on this mode that you despise instead of whining here when you don't even have approached what the mode actually has to offer at higher level? Like, I could understand that somebody that actually cares about the game, the mode and everything, but has serious issues with the design or whatever, would give feedback and complain about it, but somebody that has decided that pvp in MMOs is the worst and that XIV pvp has always been bad anyway, it truly boggles the mind.

I already answered to your low skill ceiling question (and other users too), streamlined job skillsets, very few amounts of skills to use and therefore ways to counter/react to situations. Because outside of job skills, ways to react are limited (retreat with sprint, wall hugging etc.).

You asked me if I play ranked, just said no, because there’s no value in it to me here. Players devalue ranked by themselves here, so it doesn’t help to make it attractive.

As for « somebody decided that MMOs are bad for PvP », should I remind you which genres are popular for PvP in both extremes of casual play and esport scenes ? Numbers are there, and I’m not surprised because after 20+ years of playing MMOs they always have the same issues regarding PvP, it’s the genre with all its factors that make it horrible to play. There might be a day one studio makes something good, but they’ll really have to shake up the table to get there.

Again, if you like FF PvP, good for you. I’m just saying it’s bad compared to many other (and often free) options.
It’s why they revamped FF PvP completely because the participation was abysmal.

[Mistress_Irika]

The complexity and skill expression doesn't exclusively rely on the amount of buttons. If that's truly what you think, then you probably still have much to learn about the mode.

I'll have to question this.
While buttons are not the sole reason of skill expressions and complexity they have to be considered.

Sadly I cannot come up with a legit example without going off on another topic. All I will say is that I personally feel the changes with samurai. Complexity and skill does still exist. However, samurai is not as complex as it was last expansion, and it's getting difficult to set yourself apart from the other players using the same class. you're using.