SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

[Renathras]

The point is not whether the class is easy or difficult, but its accessibility.

I think that depends on what is changed. Making things clunky or convoluted isn't adding good gameplay or depth, imo. BRD is a presumably easy Job, but when your hotbar is exploding with procs, not so much. It also depends on the person, as some people find rigid rotations easier while others find timers to track easier, and still others prefer proc/priority systems.

Not because it's nice to play, but because the only thing you do is follow the raid mechanics without being distracted by your rotation without having any penalties in terms of damage.

For the record, that is how I would define "nice to play". That it is logical and flows smoothly enough that you can play it almost without having to think about it once you've got it down. Something that is not nice to play never reaches that "second nature" stage. As for RDM, it's honestly pretty nice to play as well. The bigger issue is that the game does a poor job of telling you when abilities proc.

EDIT:

That's what I mean. Final Fantasy's definition of a "summoner" is different than most other games because their "summons" aren't something that actively fight alongside you. You don't really control most of your summons' abilities; rather you channel them. I get why they mostly removed the "pets" because commanding the pet to do an ability was really awkward up to (and including Shadowbringers).

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Many other game summons work this way as well. Thee idea of a summon that fights with you is a RELATIVELY new concept in video games. The reason for this is because AI is far better now than it was in, say, the 90s. You started seeing the more modern "fights alongside you" summons in the 2000s. Oblivion and FFX and so on. And even in many of those cases, you didn't command the summons. Baldur's Gate had summons as far back as the mid90s, but they were often (depending on the summon) kind of independent. Oblivion's summons (and I guess Morrowind?) were fire and forget - you summoned them and then they kind of just went on their own personal rampage, regardless of what you were doing.

There's a bit of a distinction between a Warlock or Hunter (WoW) type pet class and a Summoner (high mage) type class. And even among Summoners, there are often a couple flavors of them. FF11's has both commandable avatars and "fire and forget" ones.

Let's bring Demi-Phoenix back up as an example. do you think making it a separate button from Demi-Bahamut would make the rotation more complex, or at least more "open" in terms of choosing between damage and support? would putting Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva on it with their own kits designed for a more supportive playstyle (while still having good damage options mind you) give at least an illusion of minor complexity by having to choose which sets of summons to use at specific points in time? how about having the Demis on their own separate oGCD's, but it's short enough (maybe something like 40-45 seconds, maybe even 30s) so that if you have to use a different set of summons before your current one is used up, you can readily do so?

A problem here is honestly FFXIV's super rigid combat system. It makes balance tight and allows for some thrilling fights...but highly limits class design.

Granted, MOST MMOs followed the WoW "Holy Trinity" instead of the Everquest "Holy Quaternary", and don't have a full on "Support" role (though WoW came close, and FF11, with its far more flexible Job system, arguably allows for it). So that ultimately limits things a lot. Like RDM, in Final Fantasy terms, should be able to be a Healer. In FF11, if it picks White Mage or Scholar as its SubJob, it can be and often is a Healer or Support/Healer in high end content in that game.

FFXIV's combat system has positives, like balance and high intensity encounters, but the downside of that is limited class design options/spaces.

[Ggwppino]

"open" in terms of choosing between damage and support?

This solution would be fine if the smn was indispensable in the party or the smn was a healer.
Choosing whether to use a damage path or a support path would only make the support path niche. Why would a dps use the support path if the two healer/tank/general mitigations can handle everything? Why should I sacrifice 43/30 seconds of damage (even if the damage lost is little) to enter a support path that is not so necessary? In my opinion it would be better to have all the elementals available to use as you see fit, without support concept and playing with the timing of the cast and recast.

It also depends on the person, as some people find rigid rotations easier while others find timers to track easier, and still others prefer proc/priority systems.

All the more reason it supports my thesis. Even if the smn will gain mechanics to make its gameplay deep, it will not affect its easy-to-understand essence. Because they have given it a basis that even chairs understand.

For the record, that is how I would define "nice to play". That it is logical and flows smoothly enough that you can play it almost without having to think about it once you've got it down.

Currently the smn has the rotation of a tank but without tank kit and without tankbursters or boss placement responsibilities. Currently a smn has the combo of a sam/mnk at 60, Currently a smn has 1/2 the GCD rotation of a drg excluding all his ogcd. At this point remove all skills and just move. What's the point of having a rotation? Let's just do boss mechanics like in Bardam (I'm repetitive but that's just the feeling I get when I play smn). Let's just do mechanics like hc2, because that's pretty much what's happening. There should be balance, and with the smn it is not respected. The smn is also a dangerous precedent and unfairly disadvantages other caster options. A DPS rotation does not have to be forcibly intricate (see dnc or mch), but neither does what the smn is currently assisting, a bare rotation of anything. If you take away an interesting rotation from the dps, what do they have left? Nothing. At this point? If they don't know how to make the rotation interesting, keep it unchanged and give him a heal kit and he becomes the fifth healer in the game. And let's put an end to these dark days.

[Renathras]

Currently the smn has the rotation of a tank but without tank kit and without tankbursters or boss placement responsibilities.

To be fair - you can confirm this in the Tank forums - TANKS barely have Tank kits, tankbusters, or boss placement to worry about anymore.

Currently a smn has the combo of a sam/mnk at 60,

I fail to understand how this is a problem. The game had less than that for 1 expansion (ARR) and then had that for the second one (HW). I'm not really sure why that's a problem, exactly, as long as it's just some Jobs and others have more complexity to satisfy the people who like a lot more. The game rose to popularity with just that.

One of the most popular questions asked by new players is "What's the easiest Job?" not "What's the least easy Job?", probably because that's what people want to start with, and many people like sticking with it. RDM was arguably the most popular DPS Job in ShB because it was the easiest with a slimmed down and easy to use rotation.

I again think the problem was not taking the other half/more than half of Old SMN and making GRM out of it, though. There was plenty there to flesh out a full Green Mage Job.

[Ggwppino]

To be fair - you can confirm this in the Tank forums - TANKS barely have Tank kits, tankbusters, or boss placement to worry about anymore.

Of course, with this tier the bosses have such large hitboxes that the positioning of the boss is not so relevant, but there is a minimum of attention in always keeping him looking north. But this is the boss mechanic that doesn't involve proper boss placement, but you go to other fights and placement is critical. However, that small aggro responsibility remains between the two tanks and thinking about how to do tb.

I'm not really sure why that's a problem

Personally it is respect. Out of respect to the players who used to play smn as a main class and ended up with a class of hellokitty online. Warning, the smn wasn't difficult before, but it had some objective problems that kept the player away from playing the class: the pet's ai, useless duplicate buttons and the fact that only ifrit was the smartest choice to use. These were the problems of the smn and they objectively solved them, nothing to say, but they completely emptied it of any interesting mechanics that were its own and nobody else's. Previously the smn had to manage the stack of ruin 4, the dots and the positioning of the pet. Now he doesn't have to do anything. Now he has to press the 2 buttons he has when they glow and that's it. The problem is respect. Respect for the players who want to play their main class and want to be encouraged to continue playing it, pushing them to deepen their class better, if they want, or not, but there must be the possibility. For what I say that the class must be accessible to all but accessible != stupid. Accessible to all because it is easy to understand, but with the right depth to push those who want, with dedication, to get the best.
Currently I can play casual a drg, the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual a blm the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual rdm I can do so, if I want to play casual an ast I can do so in a casual content. If I want to play casual blm in a hard content, I can't do that. If I want to play casual an ast in a high content I can't do it, if I want to play casual with smn on the other hand I can indeed.
The point, after all these words, is that those who master this class do not reach the peak of fulfillment of having mastered a class. I just feel a void like when I play any other class casually, maybe even worse.

it's just some Jobs and others have more complexity to satisfy the people who like a lot more.

Complexity should be a curve starting from the entrypoint [Floor] (So the lower it is, and the smn's is very low, the more accessible it is) up to the master [Ceiling]. Curve starting lower or higher, depending on playability requirements, but still a curve. Currently the smn is constant. It is static and does not provide for the person to improve.
Also, the smn is the only class, not only on ff14 but on the face of the earth, that has a setback in its gameplay.
Every class gains buttons to press and new mechanics to deal with: that can be proc, dot, different combo, positional, heals to place, regen to use, bars to fill, etc. The smn does not. The smn has no gameplay evolution, it remains static, gains nothing and only loses. The smn at 50, in the 60 seconds has a cast time of about 21 seconds, at 90 it has 10, The half, 10 seconds that can be reduced to 7 with swiftcast. ok the cast is not such a major difficulty, but the smn witnesses its own setback in gamplay as it goes forward in the level. A completely different direction from other classes in the game and any game I have ever played, especially in an mmorpg.

[Trensharo]

Personally it is respect. Out of respect to the players who used to play smn as a main class and ended up with a class of hellokitty online. Warning, the smn wasn't difficult before, but it had some objective problems that kept the player away from playing the class: the pet's ai, useless duplicate buttons and the fact that only ifrit was the smartest choice to use. These were the problems of the smn and they objectively solved them, nothing to say, but they completely emptied it of any interesting mechanics that were its own and nobody else's.

This.

It isn't even about the difficulty of the class. It's about respecting players choices in a role playing game when they choose a specific class fantasy. The primary issue is the class is fundamentally different from what it was, which completely nullified the investment many people have put into it. Class Fantasy, Role Playing, etc. All destroyed. It's no different than removing Summoner and giving users a Level ## BLM or RDM in its place - practically speaking. It's a completely different class with a different class fantasy, but the same name and using some of the same skills while repurposing some of the same graphical assets. The entire class fantasy that has existed since ARR release has been practically deleted. No amount of cope or deflection is going to convince me that was a justified or optimal decision.

"New Summoner" is not "Summoner." One can argue whether or not it fits with FFX Lore... whatever. But Summoner became what it was when they decided that's the design they wanted to run with years ago, and then allowed it to persist for as long as it did. This is not a single player game with limited replayability. It is a live service Massive Multiplayer Role-Playing Game, where people invest considerable amounts of time (and monetary) investment and become attached to (and invested in) a specific class fantasy that they choose because of the design that exists in the game. And they expect the developers to stick - at least approximately - to that design goal over the course of the game's lifetime.

Otherwise, why bother playing the game at all? There is no reason to play a role-playing game, when your choices in character creations can't even be assumed to be respected by the developers. The entire concept requires a fundamental stability in class fantasy. This isn't delivering that.

And arguments based on raiding are laughable, at best. I've been playing MMORPGs and raiding in high end guilds since 2000 and it was common for us to play classes we absolutely hated just to get through the raid - be it mechanics or balance issues (one class over tuned vs. others under tuned). Almost no one wanted to play a Mage or Necro in a raiding guild in Luclin-era EQ. Many guilds would just box level 52 Mage/Necro alts, or have the Mage Necro players box their mains while they actually DPSed on an alt character because the only thing they were good for was summoning mod rods and mana restoring the mage doing nothing but summoning mod rods.

The summoner class fantasy has been a thing in MMORPGs since practically the birth of the genre as we now know it, and a lot of the classes in MMORPGs (including FFXIV) have roots in D&D. They usually weren't isolated innovations by game development companies, Lol. This is why the same fantasies tend to be common across so many different games (even if they were given different names).

Aligning a class to fit "lore" is fine up until the point where the changes are so drastic that it fundamentally alters the class fantasy outside of the scope of what existing players agreed to when creating their character - especially this far into the game's lifespan. At that point, you're better of creating another class.