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  1. #1
    Player
    Ggwppino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Posts
    340
    Character
    Ggwppino Yarappoi
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    To be fair - you can confirm this in the Tank forums - TANKS barely have Tank kits, tankbusters, or boss placement to worry about anymore.
    Of course, with this tier the bosses have such large hitboxes that the positioning of the boss is not so relevant, but there is a minimum of attention in always keeping him looking north. But this is the boss mechanic that doesn't involve proper boss placement, but you go to other fights and placement is critical. However, that small aggro responsibility remains between the two tanks and thinking about how to do tb.

    I'm not really sure why that's a problem
    Personally it is respect. Out of respect to the players who used to play smn as a main class and ended up with a class of hellokitty online. Warning, the smn wasn't difficult before, but it had some objective problems that kept the player away from playing the class: the pet's ai, useless duplicate buttons and the fact that only ifrit was the smartest choice to use. These were the problems of the smn and they objectively solved them, nothing to say, but they completely emptied it of any interesting mechanics that were its own and nobody else's. Previously the smn had to manage the stack of ruin 4, the dots and the positioning of the pet. Now he doesn't have to do anything. Now he has to press the 2 buttons he has when they glow and that's it. The problem is respect. Respect for the players who want to play their main class and want to be encouraged to continue playing it, pushing them to deepen their class better, if they want, or not, but there must be the possibility. For what I say that the class must be accessible to all but accessible != stupid. Accessible to all because it is easy to understand, but with the right depth to push those who want, with dedication, to get the best.
    Currently I can play casual a drg, the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual a blm the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual rdm I can do so, if I want to play casual an ast I can do so in a casual content. If I want to play casual blm in a hard content, I can't do that. If I want to play casual an ast in a high content I can't do it, if I want to play casual with smn on the other hand I can indeed.
    The point, after all these words, is that those who master this class do not reach the peak of fulfillment of having mastered a class. I just feel a void like when I play any other class casually, maybe even worse.
    it's just some Jobs and others have more complexity to satisfy the people who like a lot more.
    Complexity should be a curve starting from the entrypoint [Floor] (So the lower it is, and the smn's is very low, the more accessible it is) up to the master [Ceiling]. Curve starting lower or higher, depending on playability requirements, but still a curve. Currently the smn is constant. It is static and does not provide for the person to improve.
    Also, the smn is the only class, not only on ff14 but on the face of the earth, that has a setback in its gameplay.
    Every class gains buttons to press and new mechanics to deal with: that can be proc, dot, different combo, positional, heals to place, regen to use, bars to fill, etc. The smn does not. The smn has no gameplay evolution, it remains static, gains nothing and only loses. The smn at 50, in the 60 seconds has a cast time of about 21 seconds, at 90 it has 10, The half, 10 seconds that can be reduced to 7 with swiftcast. ok the cast is not such a major difficulty, but the smn witnesses its own setback in gamplay as it goes forward in the level. A completely different direction from other classes in the game and any game I have ever played, especially in an mmorpg.
    (3)
    Last edited by Ggwppino; 03-04-2023 at 05:33 PM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Trensharo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    54
    Character
    Trensharo Taikuri
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ggwppino View Post
    Personally it is respect. Out of respect to the players who used to play smn as a main class and ended up with a class of hellokitty online. Warning, the smn wasn't difficult before, but it had some objective problems that kept the player away from playing the class: the pet's ai, useless duplicate buttons and the fact that only ifrit was the smartest choice to use. These were the problems of the smn and they objectively solved them, nothing to say, but they completely emptied it of any interesting mechanics that were its own and nobody else's.
    This.

    It isn't even about the difficulty of the class. It's about respecting players choices in a role playing game when they choose a specific class fantasy. The primary issue is the class is fundamentally different from what it was, which completely nullified the investment many people have put into it. Class Fantasy, Role Playing, etc. All destroyed. It's no different than removing Summoner and giving users a Level ## BLM or RDM in its place - practically speaking. It's a completely different class with a different class fantasy, but the same name and using some of the same skills while repurposing some of the same graphical assets. The entire class fantasy that has existed since ARR release has been practically deleted. No amount of cope or deflection is going to convince me that was a justified or optimal decision.

    "New Summoner" is not "Summoner." One can argue whether or not it fits with FFX Lore... whatever. But Summoner became what it was when they decided that's the design they wanted to run with years ago, and then allowed it to persist for as long as it did. This is not a single player game with limited replayability. It is a live service Massive Multiplayer Role-Playing Game, where people invest considerable amounts of time (and monetary) investment and become attached to (and invested in) a specific class fantasy that they choose because of the design that exists in the game. And they expect the developers to stick - at least approximately - to that design goal over the course of the game's lifetime.

    Otherwise, why bother playing the game at all? There is no reason to play a role-playing game, when your choices in character creations can't even be assumed to be respected by the developers. The entire concept requires a fundamental stability in class fantasy. This isn't delivering that.

    And arguments based on raiding are laughable, at best. I've been playing MMORPGs and raiding in high end guilds since 2000 and it was common for us to play classes we absolutely hated just to get through the raid - be it mechanics or balance issues (one class over tuned vs. others under tuned). Almost no one wanted to play a Mage or Necro in a raiding guild in Luclin-era EQ. Many guilds would just box level 52 Mage/Necro alts, or have the Mage Necro players box their mains while they actually DPSed on an alt character because the only thing they were good for was summoning mod rods and mana restoring the mage doing nothing but summoning mod rods.

    The summoner class fantasy has been a thing in MMORPGs since practically the birth of the genre as we now know it, and a lot of the classes in MMORPGs (including FFXIV) have roots in D&D. They usually weren't isolated innovations by game development companies, Lol. This is why the same fantasies tend to be common across so many different games (even if they were given different names).

    Aligning a class to fit "lore" is fine up until the point where the changes are so drastic that it fundamentally alters the class fantasy outside of the scope of what existing players agreed to when creating their character - especially this far into the game's lifespan. At that point, you're better of creating another class.
    (6)
    Last edited by Trensharo; 06-02-2023 at 06:14 AM.

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