SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

[Vinal211]

It's really weird SE has such an issue with coming up with ideas on what to do for design for some classes, because the playerbase sure doesn't seem to have this creative block the design team does. Like, we could come up with changes for DRG that don't require a full rework, I'd imagine. Or changes to PLD that didn't turn Goring Blade into a Sonic Break clone

the issue that comes with that is intense reworks to fights to compensate for drastic changes to job design to not fit a 2-minute burst meta, actually make you use the buttons they give you (staring at you, role actions), and making sure that classes are mostly balanced despite that...which means they put themselves in a corner design wise. again. hell, barring outright hires, i feel like a lot of people would be more than happy to be volunteer beta testers for future job changes, at the very least to get SOME kind of response that's close to something resembling "we hear you!" when it comes to job design. and when i say that, i mean outside of the Media Tours.

[Zarkovitch]

I'm okay if they add primal with demi primal. However, if they add that I want them to continue minimalistique of buttons. So new primal should replace the old ones when the 2nd demi primal cast is done. The current Smn is a great job on controller. I really like playstyle of being rigid while figure out how to use the primal properly.

[Chasingstars]

I really like the idea of Demi-Phoenix having separate gems that are meant to be Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva.

I think the Energy Drain, Fester, Painflare all need to become primal themed. Could theme them after Odin for example.

[SweetPete]

We really need a new Demi-summon. Hoping for summon Alexander at level 100.

[Raikai]

Leviathan.

Ramuh.

Shiva.

That's. It.

Please. Don't overthink this. Don't do something weird and pointless.

We don't need "Ruin 5".

We don't need "Summon Bahamut II".

We don't need "Energy Vacuum".

We don't need some weird fourth gauge that we consume to ride Susanoo around like a mount for 15 seconds and force enemies to engage in Active Time Events.

Please. Don't try to "subvert expectations". Don't.

Just do the thing.

Just give us the rest of the Classic Final Fantasy Summons™.

Just do it.


"But the Lore says that they need to come from a weird mutated Carbuncle gem, or something!"

Okay sure, here:

• Aquamarine Leviathan
• Amethyst Ramuh
• Sapphire Shiva

There, done. Let's move along.

"B-But you can't summon Shiva! That's blasphemy!"

Sir and/or madame. We've been carting around Louisoix's desecrated memory like a designer handbag, in direct disrespect of his final wishes, for 4 years now. The ship of sanctity sailed back in Shadowbringers.

What matters now is, "Will this increase pre-order purchases if it appears during a Live Letter?" And the answer — which SE's board of directors will be happy to hear — is a resounding, YES!

So not only will this make Summoner players happy, but it will also increase SE's revenue, which can then be reinvested back into Forspoken 2. Win/win! (?)

And anyway, you can think of it as honoring someone's memory, rather than an enslavement — since we are, after all, just play-doh'ing Carbuncles into effigies of Primals... not actually performing a true summoning.

Just a small thing I'd change... Although sapphire as a color looks like Shiva, I think the mineral associated with them is Diamond!

[Renathras]

Currently the smn has the rotation of a tank but without tank kit and without tankbursters or boss placement responsibilities.

To be fair - you can confirm this in the Tank forums - TANKS barely have Tank kits, tankbusters, or boss placement to worry about anymore.

Currently a smn has the combo of a sam/mnk at 60,

I fail to understand how this is a problem. The game had less than that for 1 expansion (ARR) and then had that for the second one (HW). I'm not really sure why that's a problem, exactly, as long as it's just some Jobs and others have more complexity to satisfy the people who like a lot more. The game rose to popularity with just that.

One of the most popular questions asked by new players is "What's the easiest Job?" not "What's the least easy Job?", probably because that's what people want to start with, and many people like sticking with it. RDM was arguably the most popular DPS Job in ShB because it was the easiest with a slimmed down and easy to use rotation.

I again think the problem was not taking the other half/more than half of Old SMN and making GRM out of it, though. There was plenty there to flesh out a full Green Mage Job.

[akiraneku]

Not really a fan of summoner but this sounds really cool I'd main it if these changes were IN the game

[elioaiko]

They're definitely not bringing back old SMN or any semblance of it. They already said that they're not going back to HW difficulty and that includes headaches like SMN. It's no secret that the band-aid after band-aid throughout the years until the remake of the job gave the devs a nightmare to work with.

And the new SMN is received well despite what the complaints about it and that's all they want to hear.

It's clear that they want jobs to be more ease of access and streamlined, and unfortunately complexity is a difficult thing to tackle. How do you make a job that doesn't turn a new player off because of how obtuse thekr kit is.

I just want more summon flavored skills. Like turn their oGCDs into mini-summons that has effects from other primals.

The self shield could be Pom Barrier

Painflare to Ramuh's AoE attack.

Fester to Shiva's Heavenly Strike.

Energy Drain to something Odin related.

At this point, I just want the job to have more summoner flair to it.

[Ggwppino]

To be fair - you can confirm this in the Tank forums - TANKS barely have Tank kits, tankbusters, or boss placement to worry about anymore.

Of course, with this tier the bosses have such large hitboxes that the positioning of the boss is not so relevant, but there is a minimum of attention in always keeping him looking north. But this is the boss mechanic that doesn't involve proper boss placement, but you go to other fights and placement is critical. However, that small aggro responsibility remains between the two tanks and thinking about how to do tb.

I'm not really sure why that's a problem

Personally it is respect. Out of respect to the players who used to play smn as a main class and ended up with a class of hellokitty online. Warning, the smn wasn't difficult before, but it had some objective problems that kept the player away from playing the class: the pet's ai, useless duplicate buttons and the fact that only ifrit was the smartest choice to use. These were the problems of the smn and they objectively solved them, nothing to say, but they completely emptied it of any interesting mechanics that were its own and nobody else's. Previously the smn had to manage the stack of ruin 4, the dots and the positioning of the pet. Now he doesn't have to do anything. Now he has to press the 2 buttons he has when they glow and that's it. The problem is respect. Respect for the players who want to play their main class and want to be encouraged to continue playing it, pushing them to deepen their class better, if they want, or not, but there must be the possibility. For what I say that the class must be accessible to all but accessible != stupid. Accessible to all because it is easy to understand, but with the right depth to push those who want, with dedication, to get the best.
Currently I can play casual a drg, the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual a blm the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual rdm I can do so, if I want to play casual an ast I can do so in a casual content. If I want to play casual blm in a hard content, I can't do that. If I want to play casual an ast in a high content I can't do it, if I want to play casual with smn on the other hand I can indeed.
The point, after all these words, is that those who master this class do not reach the peak of fulfillment of having mastered a class. I just feel a void like when I play any other class casually, maybe even worse.

it's just some Jobs and others have more complexity to satisfy the people who like a lot more.

Complexity should be a curve starting from the entrypoint [Floor] (So the lower it is, and the smn's is very low, the more accessible it is) up to the master [Ceiling]. Curve starting lower or higher, depending on playability requirements, but still a curve. Currently the smn is constant. It is static and does not provide for the person to improve.
Also, the smn is the only class, not only on ff14 but on the face of the earth, that has a setback in its gameplay.
Every class gains buttons to press and new mechanics to deal with: that can be proc, dot, different combo, positional, heals to place, regen to use, bars to fill, etc. The smn does not. The smn has no gameplay evolution, it remains static, gains nothing and only loses. The smn at 50, in the 60 seconds has a cast time of about 21 seconds, at 90 it has 10, The half, 10 seconds that can be reduced to 7 with swiftcast. ok the cast is not such a major difficulty, but the smn witnesses its own setback in gamplay as it goes forward in the level. A completely different direction from other classes in the game and any game I have ever played, especially in an mmorpg.

[Dyvid]

First a job shouldn't be easy or hard, just have a unique playstyle different from those in its class. BLM main focus is switching from fire and ice spells (Fire damage, Ice restore). RDM is alternating white and black magic to build up Balance Gauge. SMN was management of DoTs, Spells, and Pets, hence the bookkeeping weapon. This type of design works because it lets players choose the style they enjoy most, not if it's just the flavor of the month.

Part of the issue was the "enhanced" job balance for 60 and 120 second junk, part is the entire battle system is outdated for EW, and the other feels like it was just a rush job that ran out of time. Any one of us could have designed a better SMN job with more than two buttons and 3 visual abilities (almost said spell but that would require SMN to actually cast something.) The current concept is lacking, and I have no faith in the team to right the ship. They need an idea person to come up with a comprehensive concept of play.