Please bring back Kaiten

[Ransu]

Integral is a bit of a stretch. I bet even Ransu wouldn't mind if they swapped it out with Kaiten.

It is part of the current rotation if your SkS is at 2.14 GCD. You'll disrupt your 2 min loop without it. It slipped my mind in my initial response.

Square's excuse to remove Kaiten was Button Bloat
Excuse was too many buttons, hokay. I'm sure as a fellow Samurai main that you are, you already know Square could have done any or all of the following...

• Merging Shoha/Shoha II
• Fusing Senei/Guren
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri
• Iaijutsu turning into Tsubame

This to keep Kaiten and Samurai gameplay the same, while having space to add for more in the future. It's essentially near unanimous when it comes to bringing back Kaiten.

Insinuating Hakagure has a prio on the list to be removed? Means you want Samurai to be less flexible in fixing its loop if it goes south. Not every fight is the same and not in every moment can you Yaten+Enpi a filler, backdashing into something detrimental to keep the loop going... I'm sure players know the concept of Filler, and Yaten Enpi... or Loop for that matter (I have no faith anyone will know honestly)

Meditate isn't as obsolete either to be on the list. FFXIV has enough content where Meditate can be used in Extreme's / Savage even Ultimate's because of Downtime. It be even better to QOL update Meditate to have it refresh Fugetsu and Fuka buffs... I'm sure players also knows what those buffs do (they fkn dont )

Even then? no Kaiten no Button bloat. Right? for what? where's this " new replacing skill " we're supposed to be getting that made this Kaiten's abysmal removal so necessary? There's just no Excuse other then " we are Lazy ". And if you think that's funny, that's just 1 button were talking about at least people view it as 1 button. I'd feel worried for when its about more then just 1 button for any Job, amirite?

It was less so button bloat and more so "action" bloat, but yes button bloat could easily be solved by merging a lot of pointlessly split skills that could just straight up be aoe/cone attacks with a potency dropoff per enemy hit.

[CelestiCer]

It was less so button bloat and more so "action" bloat, but yes button bloat could easily be solved by merging a lot of pointlessly split skills that could just straight up be aoe/cone attacks with a potency dropoff per enemy hit.

I agree.

The reason I say " Button Bloat " is because Square stated and worded it as the excuse. I go purely off of their own words.

If we say it could have been mistranslations or wrong context means we're going into assumptions and speculations outside of Square's stated words. Like that it instead could have meant " Action Bloat " or APM (CPM), meaning the following...

• Intention of Kaiten removal is to reduce APM
• Yet its removal didn't reduce APM
• While we aren't even the highest APM job

There's so many things that doesn't add up here and it stems from Square's excuse that was Bullsht no matter how we want to spin it mhm. But at least Kaiten will be replaced with something so we can " look forward to it " eventually... at some point... some time... some day...

[RyuuZero]

Not This Shit AGAIN!!!
by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

It's a Part of the Samurai's Job Identity just like Kaiten was and just like the Devs removed Kaiten YOU want to remove another Aspect of the Samurai and dumbing down the Job that 'You Love' even more just so you can argue to get your precious Kaiten Back.

But Guess What! You want do not want to make a decision, you only want to spent Meditation Stacks and your 2 Minute Burst on One Button Each..

You know Dragoons exists, right? they do not have to make a decision just press Geirskogul every time and Wyrmwind Thrust does the exact same, That's what you want with Samurai Right?! The Only difference of DRG and SAM after your suggested Changes would be that Samurai spend his resources on Circle AoEs and the DRG on Line AoEs

If you really want to "merge skills" so badly, merge the skills that are truly repetitious:
Tsubamegaeshi: Since Endwalker it doesn't contribute to Meditation Stacks, so it got removed from that Resource Management and it also doesn't interact with Ogi since Ogi has it's own Tsubamegaeshi build in, My Proposal for Skill Merger: Merge Tsubamegaeshi into Iaijutsu, which makes Iaijutsu may look similar to Ogi with the difference that you always work towards Iaijutsu and thus you do not have to wait for it unlike Ogi.

I documented the SAM's Kit, I listened to Good Suggestions from Samurai Players (like turning Ikishoten into WAR's Infuriate that turns Shinten into Senei and Kyuten into Guren, since Ikishoten aswell as Senei and Guren are on a 2min cd anyway!) I analysed the Reason for EVERY SKILL OF THE SAMURAI FOR MONTHS only to see this Community's Ignorance!? and Hey you're so butthurt because they removed One Skill that you would throw away everything that made you unique? with this way of thinking of course you'll be locked down on using Kenki just to able to Spam Shinten like a Bitch!

I want Kaiten back aswell but I will not compromise on the Identity of the Job that I Love!

We have to agree on some points though:

1. 6.08 was the Peak of Samurai Gameplay
2. Kenki should enable the Samurai Player to take responsibility of optimal Damage Output, not just to spam Shinten like a Bitch
3. Cone Tenka Goken has to return and Iaijutsu always should require a Target, which Circle Tenka doesn't and thus make it feel weak

The Best part about Samurai after 6.1 was definitively PvP
yet in PvE I still suffer and cringe everytime I see those 20 Kenki taunting me in front of every Iaijutsu and Ogi that I do, Oh You know what you could do with those 20 Kenki huh?

[CelestiCer]

Not This Shit AGAIN!!!
by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

There's barely ever a necessary decision making between AoE and Single target in any content that it matters ( like a valid Enrage ) like there's no picking in Savage literally ever. In Ultimate it has a few but honestly... with exceptions of a few Extreme's and honestly almost rare Dungeon moments with those specific skills.

Do you truly want your Fantasy to come true?
Picking between Single target and AoE choices? here you go here's your solution...

- Kaiten returns
All skills that got buffed are readjusted to compansate for Kaiten's returns. Kenki cost the same 25.

- Samurai Stance button introduced - Tansū shōten / Ōku no shōten
This singular skill button applies 1 of 2 Samurai stances where it changes skills from Single target to AoE. This Skill has a 1 second cooldown and can be weaved as fast as you can do Shinten.
Tansū shōten (Singular Focused) = Single target stance
Ōku no shōten (Many focused) = AoE stance
Fun fact: Samurai Stances is an actual practice in the Bushido Art.

- Guren Senei buttons now overlap
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Shoha and Shoha II buttons now overlap
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Yukikaze/Kasha/Gekko buttons overlaps with Fuga/Oka/Mangetzu
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Shinten and Kyuten buttons overlap
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Meditate Changed
Meditate cooldownis reduced from 60 seconds to 10 seconds
Meditate now refreshes Fugetsu and Fuka buffs, these buffs cannot be generated with Meditate however, you need to have them up to refresh them with Meditate
PS: Cause why not if were asking for a lot anyways?

- Fuga obtainable at lv10
I hate not being able to AoE at low levels as Samurai it just sucks.

- Ikishoten Button turns into Ogi Namikiri
self explanatory

- Iajutsu Button turns into Tsubame-Gaeshi
self explanatory

=================
All the above mentioned will save you 8 buttons due to compression of Samurai's kit, adding 2 buttons being Kaiten and the Samurai Stance.

Now you truly can immerse in the fantasy of picking between AOE and SINGLE TARGET with a Bonus cause we saved 6 buttons to play around with for the future.

However, personally? I just want Kaiten...

[RyuuZero]

You Know that Kaiten still exists in PvP and it turns Single Target Attacks into AoE, which works for PvP not so much for PvE.
That Stance thing sounds like Sage to me tbh, you would just hammer down the same rotation but it's AoE now.. ehh
also why would you change Kaiten like that? Currently with the Auto Crit on Midare and Ogi Kaiten should turn the next attack into Direct Hit, rewarding Resource Management that way.
Fuga overlapping with Yukikaze WHAT!? Fuga is a Combo Starter Yukikaze is a Combo Ender, I already mentioned that the Idea of merging Shoha I and Shoha II may've come to the fact that the English Translation Team just did not care.
So that Stance Suggestion squanders more than it is contributing but with the Uselessness of Kenki the Devs may gut everything about the Samurai due to too many conflicting demanding voices.
that Ikishoten suggestion already exists but here again:

/macroicon Ikishoten
/ac Ikisshoten
/ac Ogi Namikiri

that macro does exactly what you're suggesting though we may see a Single Target Ogi in 7.0 anyway

well your suggestion not only saves 8 buttons but it also changes the Samurai and turns into a Sage with a Katana, I'm not sure if that Switch pays off and I doubt it.
+ Stances for DPS are unlikely to be added anyway so what's your points? if you only want Kaiten why do you suggest merging Shoha and Shoha II and Senei and Guren? by merging those skills you disregard decision making behind it and in turn disregard a Part what makes the Samurai a Samurai.

[CelestiCer]

You Know that Kaiten still exists in PvP and it turns Single Target Attacks into AoE, which works for PvP not so much for PvE.
That Stance thing sounds like Sage to me tbh, you would just hammer down the same rotation but it's AoE now.. ehh
also why would you change Kaiten like that?

First, most threads regarding Job changes are PVE focused. FFXIV PVP is not my interest, telling me to Kaiten in PVP is cop-out. Stance suggestion was to take your fantasy concept and go overboard with it to showcase the ludicrously of it. Square's Button Bloat excuse was the reason for Skill-Kit compression suggestions to bring back Kaiten. Lastly Square buffed many skills due to Kaiten removal. So if Kaiten returns in whichever way that may be? our skills need to be adjusted accordingly again. Now...

YOUR AOE / SINGLE TARGET FANTASY IS IRRELEVENT

Unlike Kaiten, you do not constantly go back and forth to ST to AOE to ST to AOE or vice versa for it to be a heavy decision making in our rotation in any content. Because you don't.

EW Dungeons
You only have Alzadaal's Door mob that spawns more mobs and even here you rather focus the door or AoE everything. No swapping constantly back and forth.

EW Extreme Trials

• Zodiark EX - Spheres/Ball
• Hydaelyn EX - Crystals
• Mount Ordeals EX - Flyer

You use Single target on all of them including the Bosses.

EW Pandæmonium Savage
Asphodelos: 3rd Circle Phoinix - Bird adds ST
Even if you pull the adds to AOE them you still only swap once back to ST no back and forth.

Ultimates
Only UWU has a 3+ target moment. TEA has dolls, but also irrelevant. PS: had to ask the balance discord for this cause I don't do Ultimate.

You can go down further in any content, 99% of it doesn't matter you do not swap back and forth that much in seconds like you make it sound like that is Samurai's identity. Kaiten in comparison? you do all the time consistently. That's why for many or at least for me? I value Kaiten higher then AOE buttons that genuinely are bloat.

We differ in what we value... Agree to Disagree
However... I will not be bashed every time to be told that somehow we swap ST to AOE to the point it matters any content. When I do Fates when I still had Kaiten? yes I swap from Shoha 2 and Guren spamming when there's only 1 mob left form the pack I killed...

But there's literally no situation where you swap back and forth an dback and forth the way you make it sound so important.



Like no fking Samurai does this in their opener. It's just not a thing... I mean you could but geezus and I would really like to know what content you do high end or not that requires you to swap back and forth and back and forth between ST and AOE so much that gives you the idea it matters so much, I really really do.

[Ransu]

by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

It's a Part of the Samurai's Job Identity just like Kaiten was and just like the Devs removed Kaiten [B]YOU want to remove another Aspect of the Samurai and dumbing down the Job that 'You Love' even more just so you can argue to get your precious Kaiten Back.

Merging skills that share a CD with each other and do literally the same thing is not even remotely the same as kaiten getting removed. For crying aloud when SAM was introduced we only had guren and it was used in both single target and aoe. While I think senei animations is way better, we seriously did not need a single target version of guren. Shoha I and II basically have the same damn animation. There's zero reason for these skills to be split up between single target and aoe and they can straight up do both with a single skill and it is in no way dumbing down the job. That is a beyond idiotic take. The only time aoe's are even used is in dungeons and fates. There's no "decision" being made there.

But Guess What!You want do not want to make a decision, you only want to spent Meditation Stacks and your 2 Minute Burst on One Button Each..

What decision? lmao. We still have our aoe rotation, we just wouldn't pointlessly have 4 different skills that share CD's with each other taking up space for no reason other than pointlessly being split between ST and AoE when they could easily be both in a single skill.

[RyuuZero]

Merging skills that share a CD with each other and do literally the same thing is not even remotely the same as kaiten getting removed. For crying aloud when SAM was introduced we only had guren and it was used in both single target and aoe. While I think senei animations is way better, we seriously did not need a single target version of guren.[/QUOTE]
Nobody prohibited you from just not using Senei. If you hate to make decisions so much I just explained where it's place is.

Shoha I and II basically have the same damn animation. There's zero reason for these skills to be split up between single target and aoe and they can straight up do both with a single skill and it is in no way dumbing down the job. That is a beyond idiotic take.

Ehh WRONG: Shoha I are 5 Slashes

1. Downward to the Left
2. Downward to the Right
3. Upward to the Left
4. Horizontal to the Right+ 360° Spin Jump
5. Downward to the Right

Shoha II has 4 Slashes

1. Upwards to the Left, almost Vertically
2. Horizontal to the Right+ 360° Spin on the Ground
3. Downward in direction to your left foot
4. Downward in direction to your right foot

The only time aoe's are even used is in dungeons and fates. There's no "decision" being made there.

you disregard the decision because you've grown accustomed to it and you stopped thinking about it. I'm accustomed to it aswell though for me I see a Situation and I do the Skills that the Situation asks for. that's the Decision, I have to make.

What decision? lmao. We still have our aoe rotation, we just wouldn't pointlessly have 4 different skills that share CD's with each other taking up space for no reason other than pointlessly being split between ST and AoE when they could easily be both in a single skill.

They are a Part of the AoE Rotation, they offer you the ability to utilize the resources for the Situation in Question. Kaiten, also was a decision, to utilize 20 for the next Weaponskill to hit 50% harder, you could just not use it on the biggest Weaponskills that you have and now you can't use it

[RyuuZero]

First, most threads regarding Job changes are PVE focused. FFXIV PVP is not my interest, telling me to Kaiten in PVP is cop-out. Stance suggestion was to take your fantasy concept and go overboard with it to showcase the ludicrously of it. Square's Button Bloat excuse was the reason for Skill-Kit compression suggestions to bring back Kaiten. Lastly Square buffed many skills due to Kaiten removal. So if Kaiten returns in whichever way that may be? our skills need to be adjusted accordingly again. Now...

Well yes 20 Kenki for the Weaponskill to be a Direct Hit, what's the problem with that? Well your Stance Suggestion already exists in PvP right now. You do not want to understand my points, I saw your suggestions and I saw the flaws of them, which why I tell you that your suggestions are already realised in the the Playstyle of the Dragoon. Why am I not seeing that I'm in the wrong, first of all: the Suggestion of turning Ikishoten more into Infuriate so it turns Shinten into Senei and Kyuten into Guren wasn't mine, but I like it, so disregarding this Suggestion is disrespecting xAFROx's Idea. While I see the Solution in there, you just disregarded it since you do not see it since you're so convinced of your ideas being right that you cannot fathom opposition. Even though we both want Kaiten back.

YOUR AOE / SINGLE TARGET FANTASY IS IRRELEVENT

Unlike Kaiten, you do not constantly go back and forth to ST to AOE to ST to AOE or vice versa for it to be a heavy decision making in our rotation in any content. Because you don't.

Why are you implying that I go back and forth? I never said anything like that All I want is to have the freedom of choice to utilize all Resources to the given Situation. but if "My AoE/Single Target Fantasy is irrelevant", then what's the point of Hakaze when Fuko exists? and why don't we have an AoE Yukikaze or AoE Midare? hell Higanbana might get it's DoT gutted for somekind of Slashing Debuff (in all seriousness, I do not want that to happen)

[RyuuZero]

[B]You can go down further in any content, 99% of it doesn't matter you do not swap back and forth that much in seconds like you make it sound like that is Samurai's identity. Kaiten in comparison?

I never said anything about swapping back and forth: If there is something to focus, I go Single Target. If I'm in an AoE Situation with nothing to focus, I go AoE. If this is considered going back and forth to you, I'd say you're Ignorant.

you do all the time consistently. That's why for many or at least for me? I value Kaiten higher then AOE buttons that genuinely are bloat

How are AoE buttons button bloat when you never use them in Single Target Rotations? With the Exception of Ogi Namikiri, I do not do that either.

We differ in what we value... Agree to Disagree
However... I will not be bashed every time to be told that somehow we swap ST to AOE to the point it matters any content. When I do Fates when I still had Kaiten? yes I swap from Shoha 2 and Guren spamming when there's only 1 mob left form the pack I killed...

totally okay by me

But there's literally no situation where you swap back and forth an dback and forth the way you make it sound so important.

you just said that you swap, hypocrite

Like no fking Samurai does this in their opener. It's just not a thing... I mean you could but geezus and I would really like to know what content you do high end or not that requires you to swap back and forth and back and forth between ST and AOE so much that gives you the idea it matters so much, I really really do.

STOP LAYING WORDS IN MY MOUTH
Admit it, you do not want Kaiten Back, you just want to weaponize opinions. I never said anything about going back and forth! I want to preserve the decision making that Samurai Player has to make, which is to analyse the battlefield and utilize the correct tools in the Samurai's Kit for the Situation in Question, which Kaiten was a Part of. Now to see so many people wanting to remove even more uniqueness to argue a trade for Kaiten is a pathetic Betrail in my Eyes.. which is kinda deserving if you ask me.

I want Kaiten back because I reasoned with it being the Breath of the Samurai.
You told me that you were breathing the Samurai Rotation. Now let me tell you one thing: Without Kaiten, the Samurai Rotation is Shinten Spamming shit.