Please bring back Kaiten

[CelestiCer]

This Kaiten thread was apparently moved from " General Discussion ".

Alas, you'll receive enough hot-takes in the DPS section from players who don't even play the Jobs they are giving hot-takes on, nor played any jobs into High-End content to give constructive feedback. Let alone the General section posters that mostly don't give a F about any Jobs Gameplay.

The vast majority care about GlamourDresser/Fashion/Housing/Race-Hair issues and other problems that will rarely have their root problems fixed/addressed ever because Square equally doesn't give a F. Bashing Third-Party tool usage like religious zealots, when they themselves probably use BDTH, Anam, Pen and Mare. While defending Square and especially Yoshi from nearly any scrutiny when it comes to Job gameplay that they again don't give a F about, unless of course if it's about " MSQ " of which half probably can't even read properly let alone the tool-kits. Don't worry, they probably have an island somewhere to give 100x more the in-depth feedback on about when it accounts less then 0.1% of FFXIV's entire content.

The Lazier the Better.
Both the community who want to put in the least amount of effort for maximum instant gratification and Square who were lazy about keeping Kaiten to make it all more shallow. Thanks... I guess? We won't get improved gameplay, just simplified and homogenized Jobs. Changed and Reworked until every job lost something, chipping bits and pieces off of each one until its unrecognizable. I say like that is something that might happen but then again it already has. Will it be better? who knows cause who cares, community doesn't care enough and Square doesn't either, as long its Lazier and easier.

" Please look forward to it " Square will say
" Give it a try " Yoshi will say
" Give us feedback " they'll say

Important is to never forget that we gave Square our feedback, and Kaiten removal sucked

I mentioned in another thread to not mock players who will have their favorite Job be next on Square's chopping block. To not be heard sucks. If you have empathy? share your voice to them. Though General Discussion posters don't have that passion for any Job's gameplay cause they generally do not care. The bar to set by most of them for caring for Job gameplay is at " Square please drag my dead body through the finish lines of any content, kthnx ".

Hot-takes equally met with a horrible Hot-take. Call it even <3

[Ransu]

Hagakure has to go first.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

They removed it in ShB for a short time and it was horrible. Do not ever get rid of my ability to reset my stickers and gain some kenki out of it. Its uses are niche and mostly in dungeons, but I never want that skill removed again.

Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

This too. Its necessary filler if you're running 2.14 GCD.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Hagakure has to go first.

Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

[Wyssahtyn]

Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

because most players are apparently idiots who barely know what buttons to press let alone what they do

[ForsakenRoe]

Kaiten will not come back.

It's too difficult to balance the job when the off-GCD damage ressource interacts with the GCD damage in such a way.

You have to make sure that Shinten spam is always stronger than Kaiten spam while at the same time Shinten spam is always weaker than using Kaiten in specific situations.

What that means is that when they have to increase SAMs dps they can't simply increase the potency of the combo finishers and be done with it because it could happen that Kaiten on the combo finisher would become stronger than using Shinten. So they have to increase the potency of Shinten. But they have to make sure that Shinten does not become Stronger than Kaiten on your 3-Sticker-Attack.
Plus they have backed themself into a corner when it comes to adding new skills.

So what could they do? Kaiten interacts only with that one other skill? Sounds like the button bloat they said they wanted to remove when they took Kaiten away.

The mistake was to remove Kaiten mid-expansion with nothing new to add to the gameplay for another 2 years, not that they removed Kaiten in general.

1: Yes, but not because it was bad, but because SE's decided it needs to go, and had no intention of bringing it back, as evidenced by the amount of outcry about it's removal and the subsequent silence from SE about it

2: No? They managed it in SHB well enough.

3: Yes? That's how 'balancing a job's damage output' works, and they managed it in SHB.

4/5: See 3. They also added 3 skills in SHB that didn't get screwed by 'oh you have to make sure Kaiten's more efficient than Shinten spam'. It's nothing to do with Kaiten's potency, but it's 'potency per kenki ratio'. If Kaiten-Midare works out to be 12 potency per Kenki, and Shinten works out to be 10p per kenki, then 'use Kaiten on Midare, use Shinten to avoid overcap' is the gameplay. Add a new skill that is a 40s CD, costs 40 kenki, and does 500p damage. Wow, it works out to be 12.5 potency per kenki, therefore higher priority than both Kaiten-Midare and Shinten. So you'd pool kenki ahead of this new move, so you don't lose out on Kaiten Midares.

6: If they had replaced Kaiten with something, it'd hurt a little less. But the issue is, the removal of Kaiten turned the Kenki meter into the Shinten meter. Senei (costs 25) and Ikishoten (gives 50) both are 2min CDs, so they naturally line up. If SE wanted to remove 'button bloat', they could change Senei from 'costs 25' to 'grants 25', 'grants Ogi ready' and just delete Ikishoten. Or combine Shoha and Shoha2. Unless they mean it was APM bloat, in which case they're even less aware than expected, as we still have the same Kenki income. We just use it on Shinten now instead of Kaiten. The APM hasn't changed.

Kaiten's removal was not necessary. If SE couldn't work out how to 'fix issues that Kaiten caused', it's not Kaiten was impossible to work around, it's because the devs have run out of creativity to the point where they can't design around something as simple as Kaiten. Not a good sign for class design going forward.

[VictorSpoils]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

They removed it in ShB for a short time and it was horrible. Do not ever get rid of my ability to reset my stickers and gain some kenki out of it. Its uses are niche and mostly in dungeons, but I never want that skill removed again.

They don't have to remove it, and removing it back when it was actually more useful was weird, but there's no way Meditate is more niche/obsolete.

Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

Integral is a bit of a stretch. I bet even Ransu wouldn't mind if they swapped it out with Kaiten.

[CelestiCer]

They don't have to remove it, and removing it back when it was actually more useful was weird, but there's no way Meditate is more niche/obsolete. / Integral is a bit of a stretch. I bet even Ransu wouldn't mind if they swapped it out with Kaiten.

Square's excuse to remove Kaiten was Button Bloat
Excuse was too many buttons, hokay. I'm sure as a fellow Samurai main that you are, you already know Square could have done any or all of the following...

• Merging Shoha/Shoha II
• Fusing Senei/Guren
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri
• Iaijutsu turning into Tsubame

This to keep Kaiten and Samurai gameplay the same, while having space to add for more in the future. It's essentially near unanimous when it comes to bringing back Kaiten.

Insinuating Hakagure has a prio on the list to be removed? Means you want Samurai to be less flexible in fixing its loop if it goes south. Not every fight is the same and not in every moment can you Yaten+Enpi a filler, backdashing into something detrimental to keep the loop going... I'm sure players know the concept of Filler, and Yaten Enpi... or Loop for that matter (I have no faith anyone will know honestly)

Meditate isn't as obsolete either to be on the list. FFXIV has enough content where Meditate can be used in Extreme's / Savage even Ultimate's because of Downtime. It be even better to QOL update Meditate to have it refresh Fugetsu and Fuka buffs... I'm sure players also knows what those buffs do (they fkn dont )

Even then? no Kaiten no Button bloat. Right? for what? where's this " new replacing skill " we're supposed to be getting that made this Kaiten's abysmal removal so necessary? There's just no Excuse other then " we are Lazy ". And if you think that's funny, that's just 1 button were talking about at least people view it as 1 button. I'd feel worried for when its about more then just 1 button for any Job, amirite?

[Ransu]

Integral is a bit of a stretch. I bet even Ransu wouldn't mind if they swapped it out with Kaiten.

It is part of the current rotation if your SkS is at 2.14 GCD. You'll disrupt your 2 min loop without it. It slipped my mind in my initial response.

Square's excuse to remove Kaiten was Button Bloat
Excuse was too many buttons, hokay. I'm sure as a fellow Samurai main that you are, you already know Square could have done any or all of the following...

• Merging Shoha/Shoha II
• Fusing Senei/Guren
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri
• Iaijutsu turning into Tsubame

This to keep Kaiten and Samurai gameplay the same, while having space to add for more in the future. It's essentially near unanimous when it comes to bringing back Kaiten.

Insinuating Hakagure has a prio on the list to be removed? Means you want Samurai to be less flexible in fixing its loop if it goes south. Not every fight is the same and not in every moment can you Yaten+Enpi a filler, backdashing into something detrimental to keep the loop going... I'm sure players know the concept of Filler, and Yaten Enpi... or Loop for that matter (I have no faith anyone will know honestly)

Meditate isn't as obsolete either to be on the list. FFXIV has enough content where Meditate can be used in Extreme's / Savage even Ultimate's because of Downtime. It be even better to QOL update Meditate to have it refresh Fugetsu and Fuka buffs... I'm sure players also knows what those buffs do (they fkn dont )

Even then? no Kaiten no Button bloat. Right? for what? where's this " new replacing skill " we're supposed to be getting that made this Kaiten's abysmal removal so necessary? There's just no Excuse other then " we are Lazy ". And if you think that's funny, that's just 1 button were talking about at least people view it as 1 button. I'd feel worried for when its about more then just 1 button for any Job, amirite?

It was less so button bloat and more so "action" bloat, but yes button bloat could easily be solved by merging a lot of pointlessly split skills that could just straight up be aoe/cone attacks with a potency dropoff per enemy hit.

[CelestiCer]

It was less so button bloat and more so "action" bloat, but yes button bloat could easily be solved by merging a lot of pointlessly split skills that could just straight up be aoe/cone attacks with a potency dropoff per enemy hit.

I agree.

The reason I say " Button Bloat " is because Square stated and worded it as the excuse. I go purely off of their own words.

If we say it could have been mistranslations or wrong context means we're going into assumptions and speculations outside of Square's stated words. Like that it instead could have meant " Action Bloat " or APM (CPM), meaning the following...

• Intention of Kaiten removal is to reduce APM
• Yet its removal didn't reduce APM
• While we aren't even the highest APM job

There's so many things that doesn't add up here and it stems from Square's excuse that was Bullsht no matter how we want to spin it mhm. But at least Kaiten will be replaced with something so we can " look forward to it " eventually... at some point... some time... some day...

[RyuuZero]

Not This Shit AGAIN!!!
by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

It's a Part of the Samurai's Job Identity just like Kaiten was and just like the Devs removed Kaiten YOU want to remove another Aspect of the Samurai and dumbing down the Job that 'You Love' even more just so you can argue to get your precious Kaiten Back.

But Guess What! You want do not want to make a decision, you only want to spent Meditation Stacks and your 2 Minute Burst on One Button Each..

You know Dragoons exists, right? they do not have to make a decision just press Geirskogul every time and Wyrmwind Thrust does the exact same, That's what you want with Samurai Right?! The Only difference of DRG and SAM after your suggested Changes would be that Samurai spend his resources on Circle AoEs and the DRG on Line AoEs

If you really want to "merge skills" so badly, merge the skills that are truly repetitious:
Tsubamegaeshi: Since Endwalker it doesn't contribute to Meditation Stacks, so it got removed from that Resource Management and it also doesn't interact with Ogi since Ogi has it's own Tsubamegaeshi build in, My Proposal for Skill Merger: Merge Tsubamegaeshi into Iaijutsu, which makes Iaijutsu may look similar to Ogi with the difference that you always work towards Iaijutsu and thus you do not have to wait for it unlike Ogi.

I documented the SAM's Kit, I listened to Good Suggestions from Samurai Players (like turning Ikishoten into WAR's Infuriate that turns Shinten into Senei and Kyuten into Guren, since Ikishoten aswell as Senei and Guren are on a 2min cd anyway!) I analysed the Reason for EVERY SKILL OF THE SAMURAI FOR MONTHS only to see this Community's Ignorance!? and Hey you're so butthurt because they removed One Skill that you would throw away everything that made you unique? with this way of thinking of course you'll be locked down on using Kenki just to able to Spam Shinten like a Bitch!

I want Kaiten back aswell but I will not compromise on the Identity of the Job that I Love!

We have to agree on some points though:

1. 6.08 was the Peak of Samurai Gameplay
2. Kenki should enable the Samurai Player to take responsibility of optimal Damage Output, not just to spam Shinten like a Bitch
3. Cone Tenka Goken has to return and Iaijutsu always should require a Target, which Circle Tenka doesn't and thus make it feel weak

The Best part about Samurai after 6.1 was definitively PvP
yet in PvE I still suffer and cringe everytime I see those 20 Kenki taunting me in front of every Iaijutsu and Ogi that I do, Oh You know what you could do with those 20 Kenki huh?