Euphrosyne feels a bit lacking

[VerdeLuck]

The difficulty is fine when you're required to get through it weekly for 530 gear over and over. No one wants to have to keep wiping to Nymeia enrage because people aren't pushing their buttons, when they just really want a clear for their upgraded gear.

[ForteNightshade]

The difficulty is fine when you're required to get through it weekly for 530 gear over and over. No one wants to have to keep wiping to Nymeia enrage because people aren't pushing their buttons, when they just really want a clear for their upgraded gear.

You say this and yet Weeping City, Dun Scaith and yes, even Orbonne are all beloved raid series. What people want is a balance. One could argue Orbonne was a step too far with how easily Cid could wipe Alliances but the Twelve went in the opposite direction where it's damn near impossible for them to wipe anyone.

[Atelier-Bagur]

You say this and yet Weeping City, Dun Scaith and yes, even Orbonne are all beloved raid series. What people want is a balance. One could argue Orbonne was a step too far with how easily Cid could wipe Alliances but the Twelve went in the opposite direction where it's damn near impossible for them to wipe anyone.

eh I feel Cid isnt that hard, I rarely wipe there and usually yet again, difficulty is arbitrarly relying on people understanding mechanics. The reason why Dun Scaith - Diabolos is still legit hard for casual content is because even when you do know the mechanics, you still can get caught off guard from a lot of the chaos going on during the last phase, huge tank busters, trying to not hit exploding balls that cause you to push into another one creating a chain reaction, look away stack markers etc. With Cid, once you know the dance, the mechanics themselves pose no danger. We need more bosses like Diabolos honestly

[VerdeLuck]

eh I feel Cid isnt that hard, I rarely wipe there and usually yet again, difficulty is arbitrarly relying on people understanding mechanics. The reason why Dun Scaith - Diabolos is still legit hard for casual content is because even when you do know the mechanics, you still can get caught off guard from a lot of the chaos going on during the last phase, huge tank busters, trying to not hit exploding balls that cause you to push into another one creating a chain reaction, look away stack markers etc. With Cid, once you know the dance, the mechanics themselves pose no danger. We need more bosses like Diabolos honestly

Cid was heavily nerfed and they added a heavy echo to the entire raid. Orbinne now is nowhere near as bad as it was.

You say this and yet Weeping City, Dun Scaith and yes, even Orbonne are all beloved raid series. What people want is a balance. One could argue Orbonne was a step too far with how easily Cid could wipe Alliances but the Twelve went in the opposite direction where it's damn near impossible for them to wipe anyone.

You say this but it's one of the only instances of casual content with a hard enrage, one that groups have reached pretty frequently.

[ForteNightshade]

eh I feel Cid isnt that hard, I rarely wipe there and usually yet again, difficulty is arbitrarly relying on people understanding mechanics. The reason why Dun Scaith - Diabolos is still legit hard for casual content is because even when you do know the mechanics, you still can get caught off guard from a lot of the chaos going on during the last phase, huge tank busters, trying to not hit exploding balls that cause you to push into another one creating a chain reaction, look away stack markers etc. With Cid, once you know the dance, the mechanics themselves pose no danger. We need more bosses like Diabolos honestly

As already noted, Cid is comically nerfed to the point of being a complete chump. All three Alliances can outright fail Duskblade (the three person tower stack) nowadays and it still won't wipe you whereas on release, one Alliance missing it caused massive raidwide damage. It was still recoverable but spicy.

so...your reasoning is that you would want to have multiple wipes in a run? Like what are you even arguing for, I get you want the challenge but saying odd stuff like this is just not helping your argument for the general audience to get behind

How is anything I said odd? I said people want more of a balance between faceroll easy and challenging but doable fights. Everything you highlighted about Diabolos is what makes him memorable. Take my example with the now watered down Cid. He literally can't hurt you anymore. You have to go comically out of your way to fail. At which point, the whole fight becomes a complete slog. I'm not advocating for multiple wipes necessarily but an actual sense of intension to these fights. If there's practically zero chance of wiping no matter how many mistakes people make, the encounters become increasingly boring. Nobody is asking for endless wipes and two hour runs but rather they want something more than pushover bosses.

That general audience is who's complaining about Euphrosyne right now. And that same audience liked Weeping City and Dun Scaith. So I think they'll get behind a return to that level just fine.

You say this but it's one of the only instances of casual content with a hard enrage, one that groups have reached pretty frequently.

An enrage nobody even complained about when it was relevant. And outside of the initial few weeks, you weren't seeing Death Wing's enrage frequently at all. He may have come close but it wasn't all that common. Personally, I'm not even opposed to enrages in casual content as it gives the DPS some genuine responsibility.

[Midareyukki]

That general audience is who's complaining about Euphrosyne right now. And that same audience liked Weeping City and Dun Scaith. So I think they'll get behind a return to that level just fine.

Here's what bothers me the most about this topic.

Keep in mind, I absolutely agree with ForteNightshade. Everything mentioned about Thunder God Cid and Diabolos were things that, at the time, made them memorable. Same for Ozma and Hashmal, two fights that were notoriously frustrating, but memorable due to the new mechanics that punished you if you didn't coordinate or keep up with the fight. But frustrating though the fights may be for some, they were very much doable by the casual playerbase and even seen as interesting despite the difficulty spike. People got past Ozma, people got past Hashmal, people got past Cid into Calofisteri, Rofocale and Ultima.

You didn't need to be good at Savage to clear these fights whatsoever. And no one expected you to be good. Simply understand what mechanics were. I personally don't think that's too much to ask for when literal dungeons spice things up just as much. And on that note, so too do NieR Raids have fights that wipe people or spam mechanics just as much. We're talking the Compound or the Red Girl.

All while keeping in mind the fact that many of these mechanics are first tested in these alliance raids and then later reused in dungeons anyway. Where do you think Camazotz got its pillars from? Or Her Inflorescence?

The general audience that is complaining about Euphrosyne being easy isn't limited only to the people who liked fights like Cid, Hashmal, Diabolos, Ozma, Red Girl, what have you. It's not just people who are comfortable with challenge and difficulty.

But there's also another "general audience" that I do know fights against these fights being challenging. It's the exact same group that went absolutely crazy back in Stormblood when fighting Shinryu. Despite literally everything Shinryu does is just recycled from old ARR trials or generic dungeon mechanics. Shinryu doesn't rely on you having a working knowledge of EX Trials or Savage raids, much less Ultimates. And not a single person in their right mind is asking for it. But it's that group, it's that part of the "general audience" that is going around fearmongering and acting as if whenever people say "Euphrosyne is too easy", they mean "we want Euphrosyne to be insanely hard and wipe everyone by simply looking at the wrong place".

People need to stop acting like Diabolos, Cid and other fights were the epithome of insanity. Yes, they're frustrating, but they're also doable. And if you can't handle standing in the right place and following very basic instructions, then you're the one failing, it's not the game being too demanding. Because you do this in dungeons already. This is just the same at a larger scale.

And what it feels like, especially after seeing not only Shinryu being lambasted for being "too difficult", but also people wiping to Cid after he got nerfed twice in a row, is that people want every fight in this game to be at the same level as Thordan or old Cape Westwind.

Why the insistance on making every Alliance Raid instance, a 24-man content, be the same as your blitz-through 4-man dungeon with barely any depth to it? Because last I checked, people are pretty fed up with those dungeons too, often calling those glorified corridors. So what gives?

[Atelier-Bagur]

You say this and yet Weeping City, Dun Scaith and yes, even Orbonne are all beloved raid series. What people want is a balance. One could argue Orbonne was a step too far with how easily Cid could wipe Alliances but the Twelve went in the opposite direction where it's damn near impossible for them to wipe anyone.

so...your reasoning is that you would want to have multiple wipes in a run? Like what are you even arguing for, I get you want the challenge but saying odd stuff like this is just not helping your argument for the general audience to get behind

[Flay_wind]

The difficulty is fine when you're required to get through it weekly for 530 gear over and over. No one wants to have to keep wiping to Nymeia enrage because people aren't pushing their buttons, when they just really want a clear for their upgraded gear.

It's very very lenient. I did the raid over a dozen times and never seen that Enrage going off. Not even on the first day when everyone was blind.