Give us back the old Paladin

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I agree with the bulk of your points, but I feel like you can flip point number two around as well as "Plenty of people liked to play PLD before the changes, is it fair to them that they have to change how they play the entire game just because it was locked out of 5 (soon to be 6) instances of content?".

The change doesn't cause casual players to get locked out of dungeons and other casual content.

[Mikey_R]

I agree with the bulk of your points, but I feel like you can flip point number two around as well as "Plenty of people liked to play PLD before the changes, is it fair to them that they have to change how they play the entire game just because it was locked out of 5 (soon to be 6) instances of content?"

I will agree, it is one of the more opinionated answers I gave and not necessarily the strongest one, however, just looking at it objectively, old PLD was fine in all content EXCEPT Savage/Ultimate. New PLD is fine in all pieces of content. Looking at it like that, objectively speaking, the new PLD is better as it covers more content and to be clear, you can pretty much do anything you want to a job, it will be fine in the easier content irregardless, which is why the emphasis is on the harder content out there.

As for the old rotation, how would it be changed to better suit the meta? Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer the 2 minute meta has hurt the game, and jobs, more than it has helped, however, this is the hand we have been dealt with, so this is what er have to use.

The main issue with old PLD was the fact you did not have your highest potency attacks in the burst window. How could this be fixed? Even with early FoF opener, the raid buffs would run out before you finished your blade combo and tend to come out after Goring Blade. FOr the numbers, checking The Balance Discord, 2.5 second jobs tend to use their raid buffs at the 7.5 second mark, after their 3rd GCD, which is after Goring Blade for PLD, raid buffs last for 15 seconds, so 15 seconds later bring you to just after Blade of Faith, the first step in the Blade combo, meaning you miss out on a raid buffed Blade of Valor.

You could go straight into your magic combo, the whole phase lasts 20 seconds, so taking into account the 7.5 seconds before the raid buffs come out, you will get the blade combo in, but you also lose 20 seconds of a DoT in Goring Blade, not to mention, you are then delaying FoF to the ~40 second mark, how backwards is that going to be? Even if you want to fiddle around and have a FoF buffed Goring, but cut the 2 Holy Spirit's out so that Blade of Valor gets into the raid buffs, you then do not have enough GCDs to line everything back up properly, even taking into account the extra Atonement that is normally dropped.

The only feasible way it could happen would be to change the rotation to a 15 second one, ie. GB > RA > GB etc, with the magic phase being HS > HS > Con > B1 > B2 > B3. Even then though, people would complain that it has changed because it isn't the 20 seconds they are used to and you basically alternate between 2 combos. You could have some weird thing where you alternate between the RA combo and 3 Atonements between Goring Blade, but I would be sceptical about whether people would actually enjoy that.

Don't get me wrong, I also found the old rotation enjoyable, even if I did have my issues with it, however, I do also enjoy the new rotation and with a few tweaks, in my opinion anyway, it could be better than the old one and feel more rewarding.

[nia_saeli]

The change doesn't cause casual players to get locked out of dungeons and other casual content.

Yeah, non-raider PLD mains weren't getting locked out of content, they just had to lose a play-style they enjoyed in all content for a small subset of the content that they don't participate in. Like my later comment, I'm not talking about damage or performance, I'm referring to the playstyle that existed for 10 years and was just removed in 6.3 on a whim.

I will agree, it is one of the more opinionated answers I gave and not necessarily the strongest one, however, just looking at it objectively, old PLD was fine in all content EXCEPT Savage/Ultimate. New PLD is fine in all pieces of content. Looking at it like that, objectively speaking, the new PLD is better as it covers more content and to be clear, you can pretty much do anything you want to a job, it will be fine in the easier content irregardless, which is why the emphasis is on the harder content out there.

As for the old rotation, how would it be changed to better suit the meta? Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer the 2 minute meta has hurt the game, and jobs, more than it has helped, however, this is the hand we have been dealt with, so this is what er have to use.

Minor Correction: The two minute meta is the hand that raiders have been dealt with the latest raid tiers. The only content where two minute raid buffs have any impact in whether the content can be cleared is 8 player content with tight DPS checks (which is 5 -- soon to be 6 -- instances of content). Most content in the game does not need to adhere to this meta in the slightest and can still be cleared.

As it stands, regardless of my feelings on it (or how I would have opted to address these problems) SE sided with the raid community and prioritized how PLD performs in Savage/Ultimate at the expense of how it plays in the rest of the game which is equally if not more unfair. That's the only point that I was raising.

I'm glad that you enjoy the new rotation, I don't care for it and will probably find a new main.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Yeah, non-raider PLD mains weren't getting locked out of content, they just had to lose a play-style they enjoyed in all content for a small subset of the content that they don't participate in. Like my later comment, I'm not talking about damage or performance, I'm referring to the playstyle that existed for 10 years and was just removed in 6.3 on a whim.

I mean when a lot of casuals struggle to correctly press 1-2-3 or 1-2 let alone make use of defensive cooldowns as a tank, does this change really affect their "playstyle"?

[ForteNightshade]

And yet again an ability gets dumbed down because communication is too much to ask for in an MMO or because you'd loose *gasp* a GCD or whatever.
I wonder how many more abilities need to be streamlined until people realise that not that much actual game is left. It's always 'this is an inconvenience!' while I'd argue that's... just playing a game? Isn't (good) cooperation also some sort of skill expressions? Apparently not. It would also be convenient to just have only one ability on every single job called 'Resolve'. You press it and you win. Every time. Easy to balance, you always get a perfect parse and everyone is happy. lol I know that's taking things into the extreme, but honestly, looking from 1.0 to 2.0 to now that's pretty much the current trajectory.

Nice slippery slope you have going there.

As someone who has healed Savage, why am I going to give up a GCD when the trade off amounts to literally nothing? I can and have healed P5-7 without touching a single GCD. And no, that wasn't in an optimized setting but weekly PF clears. On the rare chance I need to GCD heal, it's because either I messed up my oGCD usage or someone took excess damage/died and I had to dump more resources than I planned to keep them alive. Even in the latter example, Healers have so many options nowadays, it still takes a while before they have to fall back on GCD heals. The end result of this is I'll almost never proc old Veil. The outgoing damage doesn't require it and my kit can handle everything the bosses throw out without a single GCD.

So once again that "unique" ability that was supposedly "dumbed down" simply got ignored. No amount of communication would change that because I'm only ever touching a GCD if I absolutely need to. Meanwhile, the other three tanks just get to press their buttons.

I agree with the bulk of your points, but I feel like you can flip point number two around as well as "Plenty of people liked to play PLD before the changes, is it fair to them that they have to change how they play the entire game just because it was locked out of 5 (soon to be 6) instances of content?"

While in a vacuum, I'd say no. However, with the current landscape, yes.

Many of those same players or players with a similar mindset have demanded changes which negatively impact the enjoyment for raiders or even midcore players. Bard and Summoner have been absolutely gutted from their heydays due to casual players whining they were too complicated. Dark Knight went through several iterations due to casual players refusing to play the easier tanks in Heavensward. Machinist has been a hot mess for years when they abandoned the much beloved ammo system. All of these players were told, on this very forum even, to simply "get over it." That "the majority of players prefer the new version!"

To those players now complaining their favourite job was neutered, I say, welcome to the other side of that argument. Frustrating, isn't it?

[Alpheus]

Hard disagree on Divine Veil. Why play an MMO if you want to have nothing to do with other players? It's like making Earthly Star as ridiculously big so you don't have to communicate anymore. Same with the 2 minute burst meta. Now all you do is press it when the fight starts and again at 2 minute intervals. Riveting.

Easy fix if they ever bring back old divine veil, give it the property to apply a buff that makes your next GCD physical do a heal like your spells do, that way whether you're slinging a Divine Might Spell (or in Req) or are using a physical skill next, it will proc all on its own. While still being able to be proc'd by another party member.

[Mikey_R]

Easy fix if they ever bring back old divine veil, give it the property to apply a buff that makes your next GCD physical do a heal like your spells do, that way whether you're slinging a Divine Might Spell (or in Req) or are using a physical skill next, it will proc all on its own. While still being able to be proc'd by another party member.

At that point, what is the purpose of the proc if you are just going to activate it in the next <2.5 seconds anyway?

[Gserpent]

I agree with the bulk of your points, but I feel like you can flip point number two around as well as "Plenty of people liked to play PLD before the changes, is it fair to them that they have to change how they play the entire game just because it was locked out of 5 (soon to be 6) instances of content?"

I get that people want to play their favorite job in all content (including savage), but these changes affected everyone across all levels in all content for the game. It may be unfair to have the community locking PLD out of some parties, but it's equally unfair to have PLD changed for all content to ensure that it works "better" in the two minute burst meta that only meaningfully matters in Savage and Ultimate Raids.

I want to be clear that I am not talking strictly about the DPS across all content (though SE absolutely gimped PLD below 68 for damage), I am referring to the more sustained damage rotation that was really satisfying. People -- myself included -- found that rotation to be really enjoyable. While there were spreadsheets for optimal rotations for each of the savage rights, that was completely irrelevant to 95% of the content in this game where you could just Goring Combo -> Atonement -> Goring -> Magic -> Atonement -> repeat.

The rotation basically hasn't changed other than being frontloaded and Goring Blade feeling like complete ass to push now. The issue is that *the rotation didn't change*, because having to drop Atonements due to Holy Spirit not scaling with skill speed (and no PLD wanting to try and gem both SkS *and* SpS to fix that) is an absolutely idiotic design element and it would have made perfect sense to address that in a "rework."

They need to replace SkS/SpS with just a general Haste or Speed materia, but that's obviously more of an expansion-level change rather than a patch-level change due to the probably terrifying amount of fuckery that will involve with item lists and such. They could have come up with a workaround solution for PLD (up to and including just straight up removing Atonement if needed, it's not like it's a button that feels good to push given its rather limp animation) in the meantime.

[Mikey_R]

The rotation basically hasn't changed other than being frontloaded and Goring Blade feeling like complete ass to push now. The issue is that *the rotation didn't change*, because having to drop Atonements due to Holy Spirit not scaling with skill speed (and no PLD wanting to try and gem both SkS *and* SpS to fix that) is an absolutely idiotic design element and it would have made perfect sense to address that in a "rework."

Can we stop perpetuating the lie that you need to drop Atonements? You can do whatever you want in the 3 filler GCDs and your damage will not suffer any noticeable loss.

[Alpheus]

At that point, what is the purpose of the proc if you are just going to activate it in the next <2.5 seconds anyway?

So that it can still be proc'd by another player should the boss jump and be untargetable/not wasting any MP on a clemency especially given the newer rotation being more MP heavy.

Otherwise yes you have a point but just trying to have a wider view of things even if it results in what amounts to fluff.