The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[ForsakenRoe]

If so, why? Is there something more satisfying about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 with 2.5 sec gaps vs 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-5 as weaves?

To some, yes. There's a reason I find GNB to be more interesting than current DRK, and old SB DRK more interesting than that. Rather than 1-2 1-3 1-4, it was the reverse for GNB, 1-4 2-4 3-4 cos of Continuation. You can see when you go into lower level content and lose Continuation, Gnashing Fang does not feel like it flows properly without it. Now they've changed it to just be one button instead of 3 for the GF combo, but it still has the 121212, compared to say DRK or WAR's 111 of FellCleave or Bloodspiller spam. Similarly, WHM used to have Fluid Aura doing OGCD damage every 15s. Having that back would be cool

The part about SGE identity and WHM identity (simple healer, focus on powerful direct healing), the problem with the SGE idea is that it's not the players that gave it the 'DPS oriented healer' moniker first. It was Yoshi-P, recommending people who enjoy 'doing damage as healer' to try it because 'it has ways to heal by doing damage'. We now know that 'ways' meant 'Pneuma once per 2 mins, and Kardia as targetted Embrace', which is a little disappointing to some. If they had announced that it'd be simple and effective to play, a lot of the more hardcore players would have been able to go 'I'll just stick to SCH cos ED optimization is my jam', and less upset would have occurred. It's the misleading/mistranslated 'it heals by do damage' that caused disappointment. I reckon if you were to whack my SGE 'it heals by doing damage, but like, for real' design into the game people from all skill levels would love it, but I might be a little biased on that one.

I agree with Skel, the best chance you have of getting the majority to 'accept' a healer being 1 dot 1 nuke design would be adding a new one, and setting the identity as such from the announcement. I'd accept an announcement saying 'this healer has one dot one nuke', or if the same were to apply to a Tank. I'd be disappointed that it's not my jam sure, but at least I'm not being misled about what to expect from it as I was with SGE. I'd just level that new healer to max and never touch it again, as I do with some other classes in the game like BLM or BRD or MNK.

That said, if SGE were to stay the same, and we still want it to be the DPS healer, 1 - fix Toxicon. Make it proc with more than just E. Diagnosis, perhaps Haima or some such. 2, give it an AOE Kardia so it can heal the party while it does damage.

Previously mentioned SGE design has solutions for exactly these points,
1: Toxicon is fully reworked to be a different, more integrated system for damage, and the E.Diag/E.PRog proc is changed to 'grants one free use of Phlegma'. Reduces the DPS loss from 330 down to just 60, which is probably made up for by using it inside raidbuffs.
and 2: Several ways to augment Kardia are suggested, as the main gameplay interactivity. Name of the game is 'how can I best use my MP to augment Kardia, in such a way that I can keep my team alive BY DPSing, rather than alongside DPSing?' AOE Kardia is one of those augments because that fruit is so low hanging it's touching the floor

[Renathras]

Interesting.

Honestly, I like GNB more now, but that's more a button bloat issue. Gnashing Fang's combo being multiple buttons was always weird to me playing it in ShB. If Assize had a 15 sec CD, would you be content with that?

I think with SGE people were expecting something like a RIFT Chloromancer or (to a lesser example) WoW Disc Priest. Chloros were basically mages where their damage spells were weaker and they did splash and party member heals and the like. Like if you took PvP SGE and made it into a full class. I think people were imagining something like that when Yoshi P's statement was correct. SGE is what it says on the tin "It heals by doing damage". It also heals by weaving oGCDs, but it does damage and this generates heals. People just thought "doing damage" meant "has a somewhat involved DPS rotation" instead of "presses one spam button, refreshes a nuke, and occasionally use a melee range damage button".

...completely understandable, but Yoshi P wasn't lying about it, and probably wasn't actively trying to mislead people. He seems genuinely confused why people would play a healer role when they want to deal damage, so maybe in his mind, he was thinking they want to attack enemies more than press healing buttons, and SGE rewards doing that with healing. (Pneuma you don't press for damage - it's damage neutral with Dosis - you press it for the AOE heal when you use Zoe. It's a MASSIVE AOE heal when Zoe empowered since it counts as a cast time heal instead of an oGCD. It feels like it should do big damage, what with being a massive laser and all...but it doesn't. XD)

However, the point here:

SGE was released as it is. People who jumped on it expecting an in depth damage rotation are no longer under that delusion. The ones who wanted something more involved seem to have moved back to SCH.

That is, SGE is already this. No one has any delusions of that. Why would that change? And why wouldn't that apply to a new healer?

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I do have to ask: Who do you think the "majority" are, in this scenario? Do you truly think, despite easy Jobs being the most played in the game, that the majority doesn't want easy Jobs despite gravitating to them?

Also: The identity of some existing Jobs is this, though. WHM, for example, as you note "simple healer, focus on powerful direct healing". How could they introduce a new healer with a stronger identity of that than even WHM? What would that Job even be? How could a new healer be described as "simple healer, focus on powerful direct healing" without that stepping on WHM's toes? ...not that that tends to matter when it comes to giving WHM abilities to other Jobs but not letting WHM have their toys, but the point still stands...

Say they introduced Chemist as an easy Job. Wouldn't that have you guys rushing to the cool new thing and saying it should be more complex because of lore or mechanics or precedent (the Mix command from FFX, having a magic gun weapon, etc) just the same?

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EDIT:

AOE Kardia is one of those augments because that fruit is so low hanging it's touching the floor

lol, I love this statement, and absolutely agree. You get a like for that alone.

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EDIT2:

Also aside: It occurs to me that I really hate DoTs - as I've mentioned before - but don't dislike non-DoT spells. For example, I like Plegma and Toxicon. Granted, neither are spamable. My only issue with Plegma is the range. It doesn't have to be 25y, but 10y would be nice, 6y just feels constraining like a pair of gloves a size too small.

There also seems to be a difference between number of buttons (because most of you in pitching proposals tend to include adding 3-5 new abilities (sometimes with removing heals to "make some room")) and "pressing button more often". For example, I don't consider pressing Fell Cleave 50 times to be "more complexity" (the only thing making it mildly complex is the gauge management, but if that's removed and we're just talking the spam, I don't consider that "added complexity"). One thing I like about SGE is the hotbar economy is as good as WHM. If something was done like making the potency of Misery 620 (2x Glare) but making each Lily use generate a Misery (so you could hit it once every 20 seconds), I wouldn't mind that at all. If anything, it would give WHM more mobility and slightly better MP economy. I feel like you guys would dislike that because it would lower the skill ceiling - lower damage Misery means less penalty for not fitting it into buff windows, and it would be come a "use on CD" button, basically, since you would use it every 20 sec to not overcap lilies. It would be a bit like a pocket Ruin 4, basically, just used every 20+/-19 sec instead of once per 60.

I figure you guys wouldn't care for that, but I'd personally be fine with that change and not see it as adding complexity so much as being a side-grade - you'd hit the button 3x as often, with a lower skill ceiling, and it would make WHM more freely able to move about the cabin.

In other words, would that be "more complexity"? I wouldn't think so, but considering someone mentioned how many times buttons are pressed as an argument, and someone else sees Phlegma (a GCD) as distinct from Assize (an oGCD) despite them having the same CD and being used on average the same number of times in the fight, I'm curious if that would count.

(Note that this isn't a proposal, per se, just wondering how "complexity" vs "simplicity" are actually being defined by all of us. It's possibly the reason there's confusion among you vs my stance on Aero 3 when I don't mind Aero 3 as basically "a slightly more often pressed than Misery second button in AOE".)

[Shurrikhan]

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage. If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

That's a fair question. I think it mostly comes down to the simple fact that an oGCD like Assize, even though it bundles some healing into it (and is already more interesting for that fact that a pure damage spell with similarly no other interactions would be, since timing could potentially then net skipped GCDs of heal) doesn't so provide what feels like an alternative in rhythm to fillers like Dosis. The oGCDs may instead feel only like a different topping on the same unvaried meal.

You'll see that opinion just about everywhere, though, be it r/ffxivdiscussion, r/ffxiv, the YouTube comments, or in-game. There's something about a priority list --especially if situationally varied-- moving down more than a single line of uptime (GCD or oGCD) that makes it feel more significantly like an alternative rather than just "Always hit this button... and maybe also hit whatever's come off CD (that won't get in the way of hitting this button anyways)."

For those with the plugins or low enough ping to handle it despite the game's poor netcode, it'd likely be cool when oGCDs shake up their priority order, too. (On probably the furthest extension of that, a lot of early NIN mains I knew liked that they could let Shadowfang fall off as briefly as possible, without replacing it early, through choosing whether to Raiton or Fuma, or to Suiton into TA in the same GCD gap, where GCD and oGCDs could optionally further fight for uptime and therefore made each other feel more like real choices.)

Also aside: It occurs to me that I really hate DoTs - as I've mentioned before - but don't dislike non-DoT spells.

Quick question:

If the icons for your DoTs/HoTs (without needing plugins) tracked the timer of their respective debuffs on your current target (last living target if none selected), would DoTs still annoy you, or would they just feel more like... soft-CDs?

[ASkellington]

EDIT: On the asterisk:

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage. If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

If so, why? Is there something more satisfying about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 with 2.5 sec gaps vs 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-5 as weaves?

Assize, Macrocosmos and Earthly Star are not dps buttons. They heal and do damage. They aren't a strict dps tool. Phlegma does DPS and nothing else. Toxicon does DPS and nothing else. Misery does DPS and nothing else. Those are dps tools. Not healing tools. In a "perfect world" ES, Assize and Macro would be used ONLY to heal and have the bonus of doing damage. Only Macro does this, because there's 0 reason to not use Assize and ES on CD for extra damage when you have so many healing tools to "make up for them being on CD".

oGCDs do not count because they do not interrupt GCD spam. AST weaving cards inbetween Malefics for example don't amount to much in being satisfying. Because whether or not I have cards I'm still DPS spamming 1 button.

Where as GNB has Gnashing Fang on the GCD with Continuation on the oGCD to go with it. That is more satisfying to me.

[Shurrikhan]

Assize, Macrocosmos and Earthly Star are not dps buttons. They heal and do damage. They aren't a strict dps tool.

Not disagreeing that those don't exactly feel like offensive "rotational kit" or the like, but...

I kinda feel like those skills offer more to the the feeling of the kit than a pure dps button would, because of that bundled healing.

Ultimately, you're --in the balance of things-- sacrificing maybe 20-30 filler attack potency (20-30 per filler attack in 100% offensive uptime would be 440-660 potency per minute, or 293-440 potency per Assize's CD) in order to divert that damage over to this tool balanced at being used nearly on CD, but that healing component leaves you a little something more to potentially leverage skillfully by occasionally NOT hitting it on CD (because the damage event isn't every 40s and the healing component would otherwise go to waste). I... actually really like that.

Granted, much like whether oGCDs provide any noticeable alternative to that otherwise over-repetitive flow of filler spam (that I... haphazardly... discussed above), that depends on their contexts. If you'd never have any real benefit to holding onto Assize briefly (because you wouldn't need to use Medica/M2/C3 anyways even if you wasted the heal), then that difference won't yet add anything.

I feel like those are important skills to have for that reason though; they make great indicators as to whether requirements are too low or making each other too redundant, etc.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage.

Phlegma breaks my Dosis spams however super brief that moment is, Assize do not stop me from Glare spams. ... Which is a gross simplification from my end, but everybody else already added the relevant points.

[...]If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

Short answer would be: yes.

Going slightly deeper, it largely depends on the oGCDs added. Do they interact with the rest of existing kits? Do they influence the decision I'm making before/after using it? Do they also do X, Y, or Z, instead of just damage? Do this button takes priority over other buttons? Is there any other viable way to use this button other than just "fire and forget"? How often they are utilized in comparison to other buttons? The list goes on (The list also applies to any GCDs).

I personally do not think GCDs is the only way to do it.

[ASkellington]

Not disagreeing that those don't exactly feel like offensive "rotational kit" or the like, but...

I kinda feel like those skills offer more to the the feeling of the kit than a pure dps button would, because of that bundled healing.

Ultimately, you're --in the balance of things-- sacrificing maybe 20-30 filler attack potency (20-30 per filler attack in 100% offensive uptime would be 440-660 potency per minute, or 293-440 potency per Assize's CD) in order to divert that damage over to this tool balanced at being used nearly on CD, but that healing component leaves you a little something more to potentially leverage skillfully by occasionally NOT hitting it on CD (because the damage event isn't every 40s and the healing component would otherwise go to waste). I... actually really like that.

Granted, much like whether oGCDs provide any noticeable alternative to that otherwise over-repetitive flow of filler spam (that I... haphazardly... discussed above), that depends on their contexts. If you'd never have any real benefit to holding onto Assize briefly (because you wouldn't need to use Medica/M2/C3 anyways even if you wasted the heal), then that difference won't yet add anything.

I feel like those are important skills to have for that reason though; they make great indicators as to whether requirements are too low or making each other too redundant, etc.

I don't feel the same way because there is 0 reason for me to hold Assize or ES when I have other healing tools for its spot with how infrequent the healing currently is in most 90 content.

Where as at 70 I have a much more limited oGCD kit, meaning that my usage of ES matters more and I can't spend it on solely dps.

I want to be rewarded by holding on to ES and placing it correctly (which the current size denies me reduce it to 20y) and timing it so that the big heal comes in after a devastating mechanic to heal the party to full. My issue is that there is no reason for me to when damage is so infrequent and scripted that generally when I place it on cool down it does it any way, so what's the point in holding it?

[Shurrikhan]

I don't feel the same way because there is 0 reason for me to hold Assize or ES when I have other healing tools for its spot with how infrequent the healing currently is in most 90 content.

Right, but we could say the same thing for virtually any layer of complexity without its sufficient context. I feel like we should take that as a cue to (re)include those contexts (where not simply a convolution -- more on that later, if need be) rather than simply letting the skills be shallowed out, too, just because they're not distinct within this (already problematic / greatly improvable) situation.

Not saying you're trying to shallow out anything or whatnot, but... if I just feel like if we treat a thing that very easily could have reason to be more than just "hit on CD," as of no difference from something that has literally nothing else going for it... then we're also largely excusing poor context (mismatch between fight design and kit tuning, relative tuning between actions being so off-kilter that it needlessly leaves many actions virtually untouched, etc.).

That's the reason for my focus on "yet". Assize, etc., don't often enough do that yet. But the contexts really, really should be changed to make they so they can do that something more, since they're far from the only abilities/actions made significantly less interesting from a lack of space for leveraging different ways or qualities of use.

Sorry if that largely comes down to framing or semantics. I just feel like that is a difference in perspective that may be pretty important as we go forward (or even just try not to devolve further).

[ASkellington]

Right, but we could say the same thing for virtually any layer of complexity without its sufficient context. I feel like we should take that as a cue to (re)include those contexts (where not simply a convolution -- more on that later, if need be) rather than simply letting the skills be shallowed out, too, just because they're not distinct within this (already problematic / greatly improvable) situation.

Not saying you're trying to shallow out anything or whatnot, but... if I just feel like if we treat a thing that very easily could have reason to be more than just "hit on CD," as of no difference from something that has literally nothing else going for it... then we're also largely excusing poor context (mismatch between fight design and kit tuning, relative tuning between actions being so off-kilter that it needlessly leaves many actions virtually untouched, etc.).

That's the reason for my focus on "yet". Assize, etc., don't often enough do that yet. But the contexts really, really should be changed to make they so they can do that something more, since they're far from the only abilities/actions made significantly less interesting from a lack of space for leveraging different ways or qualities of use.

Sorry if that largely comes down to framing or semantics. I just feel like that is a difference in perspective that may be pretty important as we go forward (or even just try not to devolve further).

I never said I didn't want that. I said its the reason why they don't count as 1: breaking up the monotony and rather 2: contributing to it to me.

[ty_taurus]

OGCD elements can supplement GCD rotations to some level. Look at BRD, a DPS with a GCD rotation that's really not much more deep than the healers even. You've got:

- Burst Shot / Ladonsbite
- Refulgent Arrow / Shadowbite every few GCDs generally
- Caustic Bite and Stormbite which you ideally use once at the start of battle and then replace with one use of Iron Jaws every 45 seconds
- Apex Arrow into Blast Arrow

And that's it. Despite this, BRD can feel very overwhelming for a lot of people because even though that's a very simple rotation to manage, its OGCD library is decently wide, but also consists of a lot of short cooldowns, charges, and procs.

- Bloodletter / Rain of Death every 15 seconds which you get free stacks of throughout Mage's Ballad
- Empyreal Arrow every 15 seconds
- Sidewinder every 60 seconds
- One of your three songs every 45 seconds
- Pitch Perfects during Wanderer's
- Four buffs to weave for you two minutes

It's really not a hard job per say, but it can feel very hectic because you're looking in a lot of different places depending on your song. And while Troubadour and Nature's Minne aren't a part of your rotation, they are two of the most prominent sources of utility that come from the DPS role (Nature's Minne as of the most recent patch), and thus managing them can play into your gameplay as well.

Moving to the topic of AST, I actually didn't find its 1 nuke/1 DoT rotation in SB to feel as stale as it does for the healers currently, because the burden of knowledge on the old cards was a lot more complex. You were actively paying attention a lot more to what cards you were getting, what you stored, what you burned, and the factors that your cards applied to. Like as a SB AST, I would actively be paying attention to MP values in case a Ewer could help my cohealer. Additionally, AST's only OGCD healing resources were Earthly Star and Essential Dignity at the time (Lady too technically, but you rarely wanted to sit on her because she ate into Minor Arcana's CD), so you had to resort to GCD healing for most raidwide damage. Even now, I actually don't think AST's lack of an offensive rotation is what's making it feel awful to play. It's the card system feeling unnecessarily complex for a very lackluster reward in Astrodyne.