The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Shurrikhan]

So are Tomahawk and honestly Maim and Heavy Swing which are only pressed because Storm's Eye/Path don't work without them. They're Glare/Dia with extra steps.

...Yeah, honestly. Though, that's also been the subject of much criticism... since 1.18, when Yoshida added those rigid combos.¹

¹ That design paradigm replaced another that, though far from sufficiently polished or tuned at the time, was based upon conditionally-preferable builders and spenders across skills with varying or no CDs with certain synergies that could [if better tuned] create more flexible pseudo-rotations.

That doesn't really make any sort of case for healers having more regularly interacted with GCDs than tanks, though, which was the point originally made before you shifted it to "single-target combat" to specifically remove all tank AoEs from the equation while leaving all healer AoEs.

Even when you consider each job via plugin-style consolidation (a button each per combo, rather than per step), they don't. Even when you pluck out the stuff that needn't be bound (Shield Bash, Shield Lob, Clemency, Shirk; Cure, Medica, Cure III, Repose, Esuna [in most fights]), they still don't.

Healers have by far the most lopsided cpm of any job, even when considering any given combo as a single button each, and the highest portion of disused GCDs.

No, your interpretation of my definition is that simple = shallow. That isn't my definition of simple.

Then why are you contesting the guy over wanting depth that still comes off as (ie., is [as] approachable as) something simple?

If you're given get different test cases that nonetheless look and feel simple, perhaps even more intuitive than what we have now, and you still decline them because they're not simple enough or because they involve some degree of change until only the shallowest forms remain... how else is that supposed to be interpreted?

How is "wise old Renathras", clearly derisive sarcasm, "neutral", exactly?

It isn't. At this point, I'm simply done with you. I leave you to more patient hands and minds.

But neither can you claim "neutrality" in your rampant classical-rhetoric-doctorate-style ego-stroking of 'I alone am capable of rationality; conclusions I don't agree with must be fundamentally flawed and/or based only in emotions.'

Granted, that's not a bias that surrounds a particular opinion, outside of that you are better than those you interact with (and thus if others disagree, they must be wrong), but that still ain't neutral.

You ask for rationales. You are given them. Others expound upon them for you. Others ask you for the same, and you merely repeat yourself under the very same self-conflicting warrants.

3) We have a past instance of making things harder, and it nearly killed the game.

So you're... what, attributing Gordius Savage's difficulty to players lost around that time to that period's content drought? (Hell, Gordius Savage wasn't a matter of excess kit depth; it was a matter of virtually no leniency in encounter tuning.)

...W/e.

[ty_taurus]

You aren't alerting me.

Alerting me would be:
"Ren, I get your arguments. You're raising a lot of fair points. I will engage with you on those points. <offers arguments and counter arguments>. I'd also like to point out that <insert specific quotes> might be coming across a way you don't intend. Can you clarify what you mean by that or avoid <insert specific terms that you find angry or vitriolic>?"

I am not a kindergarden teacher, and you are not a child who needs to be taught how to get along with others. You are an educated adult who is out of line and has treated everyone else here as beneath you. Name calling would be calling you an "airhead" or a "dimwit" or worse. Telling someone that they're being inflammatory is not an insult; it's an observation; it can be an incorrect observation, but there doesn't seem to be anyone who believes this observation was incorrect other than you. When the only person who believes the accused is innocent is the accused themselves, that usually means they're the one in the wrong. All conversations began cordial until you made it hostile and then played the victim. People aren't siding with me because they agree with my stance on healer design. They aren't that petty. If it was simply a disagreement of stances, I'd be the one being called out for making mountains out of molehills by everyone else regardless of whether or not I was on their side. I'd be getting responses like "Look I don't agree with him either, but you really need to chill out. It is not that serious."

[ASkellington]

So we had it years ago, it worked, people liked it...and this is an argument against it...why?

To clear up this confusion - no. We already argued why we want all healers to be changed back in Shadowbringers.

No, your interpretation of my definition is that simple = shallow. That isn't my definition of simple.

Two main dps options on a class in an MMORPG is objectively shallow. You can like it, but it is a shallow DPS kit.

Again, as before, you want me to argue a point I haven't made. When have I argued simple cannot have depth? The dispute here is that I feel they already have depth and you do not.

Once again 2 main buttons is not depth. It is objectively not depth. I'm not talking about the healing kit (which arguably has no depth or nuance to it either). WAR's Fell Cleave also have 0 depth as far as I'm concerned btw. You can argue WHM's dps kit has depth when a Glare proc's a Dia like BLM's DoT can proct itself.

Because (a) that wouldn't allow it to be an entry healer (or any of them) and (b) because the role is healer. The depth should really be in the healing kits, not the DPS kits for the healer role.

The first part of this makes 0 sense. If the class progresses correctly (which, I'll admit is extremely hard for SE to do considering Affalus Misery and the whole lilly gauge has yet to be properly moved) you would gain a dps skill in early enough levels to actually use it as a part of your rotation same as a melee dps 1-2-3.

The second half I agree with but SE doesn't want to. Point is moot. If they aren't going to make the healing kits actually take skill to use, then the dps kit needs to change, which is what we've been arguing.

Here's the problem with this argument - you're spamming one dps button. In a normal fight, you're pressing a lot of buttons that aren't Glare/Broil/Malific/Dosis. The thing is, they're oGCDs.

I wasn't talking about a normal fight. I said SOLO CONTENT.

Where you thought I was talking about a normal fight was when I said midcore to veteran healers play as if they are in a solo fight because the healing kit isn't being used. You can prune healing kits, they SHOULD be pruned, and the class would play the same at the high level.

[ASkellington]

I
Your argument:

We've had change in the past, people can adapt.

Your evidence:

We had a change, and people adapted.

My counter(s):

1) The case you're citing was a case where things were made easier: SEE (2)

2) A past of making things easier cannot be used to predict the results of making things harder.

3) We have a past instance of making things harder, and it nearly killed the game.

Does that make more sense?

1. is still irrelevant. The point is people can adapt EITHER WAY. Just because one is easier to adapt to doesn't mean people can't adapt.

2. Yes it can. The point is whether or not people CAN adapt not if they WILL or if they will have an easy time to adapting. That was never my argument. And I said as such. And again, it's not gonna matter in lower level content because SE purposefully makes it so it doesn't matter. Meaning if a person doesn't want to use the extra dps options to make a boss in a dungeon go faster, no one can make them and if they get harassed and I'll misquote myself again: that is what the report button is for.

In content that it DOES matter - EX and Savage it's already expected of you.

3. The only thing in recent memory that made things harder was this current savage tier, because SE decided to up mitigation requirements that the rest of the party had to deal with (because healers don't have things like addle and feint) and had 0 training with else where because SE can't scale content properly. Or rather, they don't want to.

SB level of difficulty isn't too much to ask for.

You keep saying we're arguing to change all the healers for nothing more than enjoyment, well personally I think you're wanting to keep WHM the same for no other reason than enjoyment yourself. That's fine and all, but you can't say we can't use enjoyment personal or not when you are also doing the same.

[ForsakenRoe]

Where you thought I was talking about a normal fight was when I said midcore to veteran healers play as if they are in a solo fight because the healing kit isn't being used. You can prune healing kits, they SHOULD be pruned, and the class would play the same at the high level.

Yeh, weighting every button in the WHM kit equally for an attempt to say 'well look WAR uses less buttons' by saying 'well you press Cure, Cure2, Esuna, Regen, Medica, Medica2, Solace, Rapture, PI, Temperance, Assize, Misery, Lilybell, Thin Air and the occasional Raise too!' is very disingenuous, partially because, no, I don't press the first 5 of those at all even in Savage, and secondly, most of the rest we press VERY rarely compared to Glare, due to their CD. 2 Uses of Lilybell over a P8S run doesn't suddenly spice up the Glare spam enough for me to go 'actually it's okay I'm using 120 Glares in this fight, cos I have TWO whole Lilybells!'

Because (a) that wouldn't allow it to be an entry healer (or any of them) and (b) because the role is healer. The depth should really be in the healing kits, not the DPS kits for the healer role.

Sir, the expectation of how much 'depth in the healing kits' should be drawn upon is so shallow, the WARRIOR can handle the healing in EX roulettes. SE does not want to budge on making healing in lower content harder. If that is the case, then the DPS side is the only place to add depth that doesn't screw over 'casual players'. We've been through this many times. If there's any 'depth' to be had in the 'healing kit', first SE has to make us actually USE the healing kit. I find myself forgetting to use every part of my kit even in Savage at times. Should I Soteria and Krasis here? Oh I don't need to, because the WAR has Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium and Shake it Off and Thrill of Battle and Storm's Path.

Here's the problem with this argument - you're spamming one dps button. In a normal fight, you're pressing a lot of buttons that aren't Glare/Broil/Malific/Dosis. The thing is, they're oGCDs.

I suppose one solution would be to make all heals GCDs. Remove oGCDs from healer kits and convert them all to GCDs. Then you'd be pressing other GCD buttons besides your spam nuke. We had this in ARR and HW. In ARR for both WHM and SGE, and in HW for WHM (also SB for WHM), so there's precedent for this.

The problem is you're only looking at GCDs and not button presses.

Time to commit the cardinal sin of linking data from the forbidden website. Here's a clear of P8S P1, from week 1 or 2 idk but it was while the HP check was scuffed. I'm the WHM.



Since you made the comparison before to WAR and how many 'different buttons they use in single target by comparison', to try and illustrate that 'well actually WHM has to press these buttons too, not just Glare!', let's look at the WAR in the clear:



Man's got 5 whole CPM over me on average. And yeh, I played suboptimally, not using every available Aquaveil or Benison. But the WAR also didn't use every available Bloodwhetting/Nascent, or Vengeance, or Equilibrium, so it evens out. Point is, Look at the size of each bar, showing the ratio of how many times each skill was pressed in comparison to each other. A nice smoothish curve for the WAR, and a sudden spike for the WHM, on one specific skill.

[Renathras]

Not reading anything else at the moment, just different thought:

If it was SGE instead of WHM, would that make people feel better?

1) SGE is a new healer which has only ever existed under the current model with its current kit.

2) They could make an option for new players to start as SGE at level 1 on their first character if they wanted to (this is more work, but less work than changing the healers. And for people with high level characters, they could start it at 70 just like today to pick up a new healer.

3) They can shift its kit to make its healing more straitforward and powerful to better fit the "easy to learn" idea than its present incarnation (level 70 dungeons before you get Panhamia say "Hai! o/")

4) SGE is already nearly a carbon copy of SCH, so there's a lot of overlap in both class fantasy/identity and present toolkit, meaning players transitioning one way or the other would be the least impacted.

5) People playing SGE chose to play it the way it is from the start. They had no notions of complexity (the people who did largely swapped to SCH), nor did they pick up the Job when it was complex and have that ripped away from them without a say (like SGE)

6) It has direct heals right now - it has Prognosis where SCH has no equivalent.

7) It wouldn't be that hard to make it more similar to current WHM. Boost the potencies of its direct heals (non Eukrasian Diagnosis and Prognosis), probably Prognosis by 100-150 (up to 400 like Medica or 450 since there's no Medica 2 here) and Diagnosis to 600-800 (Cure 2), and make Toxicon damage neutral, which is something people already want which would reward using GCD heals. Could make GCD heals trigger Kardia, as some people have asked for, though I don't know if that'd be strictly needed.

.

Nothing too complicated, it wouldn't anger all the people you fellows believe picked and play WHM and want a more complex rotation from it. It would be more complicated than just doing it with WHM, but some of you seem to be highly convinced the aesthetic of WHM needs to have a complex damage rotation and should be a harder Job to play and optimize. SGE with Cure 2 and a proper Medica would be easy enough for new healers to pick up and having an option to start it at level 1 (as a starting Job if new players wanted to pick it) or at level 70 (for existing players who are at or above that level and want to pick up a new healer) to pick up and play, and as long as Diagnosis and Prognosis can sustain a party, low level players or new healers leveling through ShB would have those strong tools to fall back on to make it a good choice for new players/healers, too.

[ASkellington]

Not reading anything else at the moment, just different thought:

If it was SGE instead of WHM, would that make people feel better?

I'mma be completely honest with you:

No. At least not now. If we were talking about on SGE's release, yeah. It could work, though... its play rate may be decreased.

The only way we'd see your idea of a DoT-Nuke healer possibly being accepted is if its a brand new one coming out.

Edit: The only healer that arguably should remain with 1 DoT-Nuke is AST simply because of the card system, something I said back in Shb. As a person who's main'd the job for as long as I have though? I want either another DoT on a shorter timer than Combust or a Nuke akin to Phlegma.

Doing solo content as AST is beyond unfun.

[Renathras]

No. At least not now. If we were talking about on SGE's release, yeah.
...
The only way we'd see your idea of a DoT-Nuke healer possibly being accepted is if its a brand new one coming out.

Okay, something to discuss.

Why...exactly do you think "not now" but that a NEW released healer could do it?

And I'm not trying to be smarmy and have no tone here, I'm genuinely curious. SGE was just released with this model, so if they just didn't release SGE until 7.0 but released it with this model as "the beginner healer" while upping the complexity of the other three, why would that be better?

SGE players right now are used to SGE as it is right now, so why would they be averse to it being as it is right now - something that doesn't seem to be bothering people that newly picked up the Job and have no historic attachment to keep them playing it if they don't like it?

SGE is brand new, it's just a year old.

And been doing PotD and HoH both on SGE and find it pretty fun. Plegma at a lower level (especially now with the shorter CD and 2 stacks) gets a lot of use when I want to burst or just have another button to push, and I pre-Eu Diagnosis shield myself, so lots of Addersting. If Toxicon was damage neutral, it would probably have the most active solo playstyle other than MAYBE SCH as it is right now.

I'm kind of curious why (a) you think it staying the same would not work and (b) why you think a brand new Job (presumably with some different aesthetic or something?) would work?

.

EDIT: That is:

Why can no existing healer - all of which currently use a simple model - not maintain a simple model?

Even the ones (definitely SGE and arguably WHM) who have always had a model like this for their lifetime and have a precedent of having a model like the present one?

And why would a new Job be allowed to do this? What would be different about a new Job vs the already existing Jobs?

(And the answer shouldn't be "Well, then no one would have to change away from a Job they currently use", because the change would be forcing people who want simpler gameplay to change to the new Job - why should they be the ones forced to change when SGE, in particular, has always been this way its entire existence?)

[ASkellington]

I'm kind of curious why (a) you think it staying the same would not work and (b) why you think a brand new Job (presumably with some different aesthetic or something?) would work?

Because I don't exactly consider SGE to be a 1 nuke 1 DoT healer. You'd need to remove Phlegma and Toxicon for that, but, even if we just keep it as is, people still want it to be the more dps oriented healer.

That said, if SGE were to stay the same, and we still want it to be the DPS healer, 1 - fix Toxicon. Make it proc with more than just E. Diagnosis, perhaps Haima or some such. 2, give it an AOE Kardia so it can heal the party while it does damage.

[Renathras]

Because I don't exactly consider SGE to be a 1 nuke 1 DoT healer.

No healer is. Plegma is on the same CD as Assize (Assize is an oGCD, but it's a physical button you press*), and Misery exists as a resource spending attack (different then, but an extra button like, Toxicon).

even if we just keep it as is, people still want it to be the more dps oriented healer.

And WHM is the "simple healer with more of a focus on powerful direct healing" and people still want it to be that. So...this argument would imply we should change SGE but leave WHM alone, doesn't it?

That said, if SGE were to stay the same, and we still want it to be the DPS healer, 1 - fix Toxicon. Make it proc with more than just E. Diagnosis, perhaps Haima or some such. 2, give it an AOE Kardia so it can heal the party while it does damage.

I don't disagree with this. Toxicon being damage neutral would fix a lot of the issues anyway. It would lower the skill ceiling, but it would make the button more routinely useful. They also added in 6.3 that it procs off of Eu Prognosis (specifically, when the shield ON YOU from Eu Prognosis breaks). So if it was damage neutral, that would make the only cost of using both Eukrasia shields be the MP cost since the damage would be refunded. Though I suppose it would be more of a side grade in terms of optimization as there'd now be a reason to stock 2 Addersting stacks to blow during burst windows along with Phlegma, I guess?

I've also been advocating to have an AOE Kardia since I first got my hands on SGE. I think honestly Krasis and possibly Pepsis should be removed and one turned into an AOE Kardia for 3-4 GCDs so the SGE could use it to proc party healing.

Though "and we still want it to be the DPS healer" - no, we'd be making WHM, SCH, and AST the DPS healers.

.

EDIT: On the asterisk:

I am a bit curious why oGCDs don't count as buttons. And again, I'm being serious here, not antagonistic. Why is Phlegma an acknowledge "distinct" damage tool but Assize is not? Is it because no charges on Assize makes it something you burn on CD rather than use more deliberately? Or is it just "oGCDs don't count", despite of the things non-healers have is oGCDs used for damage. If we had a model where healers had 4-5 oGCD damage spells, would that not count as more DPS engaging? Would it only count if they were GCDs?

If so, why? Is there something more satisfying about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 with 2.5 sec gaps vs 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-5 as weaves?