Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

[RyuuZero]

Edit: Accidentally posted prematurely.

I'll add some perspective from someone who doesn't main nor really plays SAM, but levels every job and has at least a surface-level understanding of the jobs I don't play. So take my feedback with a grain of salt. Having leveled SAM in the past, and having leveled it after Kaiten's removal, I can't really speak to how much influence this action really had one me, but managing the kenki gauge doesn't really feel intuitive. I kinda just forget to use Shinten and then feel pressured to dump it. In the past, it felt a little more structured to manage effectively, and the need for consistent use of Kaiten helped keep the gauge feeling like it had a natural flow.

Having said that, I can understand and sympathize with feeling like Kaiten is restricting future development of SAM in future expansions. It makes sense why they might see Kaiten as problematic, and removing it may allow them to breath stronger gameplay elements into SAM in the future. What I don't understand and cannot rationalize is if Kaiten is a problem for the future, why cull it now and not when you actually cross that bridge and expand SAM's toolkit come 7.0? What is the benefit from cutting things prematurely when you can just wait until you're going to release these new tools that don't function well with Kaiten to actually remove it?

I won't say 7.0 SAM will objectively be better than Kaiten SAM. We have no way of knowing if it will be or not, but I just don't understand why the non-problematic Kaiten now couldn't just wait for those changes. That said, whatever we do get, I think the biggest thing that feels off with SAM's gameplay is the lack of intuitive engagement with its kenki gauge, so hopefully whatever replaces Kaiten in the future will fill that void. Perhaps it will, or perhaps it won't.

Ahahaha xD ya made me a lil bit mad with the "It makes sense why they might see Kaiten as problematic, and removing it may allow them to breath stronger gameplay elements into SAM in the future."-Line, since Kaiten emulates to breathe into your attacks, which is why Kaitenless Samurai are best describted as Breathless Samurai, but it's all good^^

I'm thinking about a Meme to translate the wish of Kaiten returning, thankfully Samurai after 6.1 still can do cool stuff, my Example would be my Big Kahuna Combo: Ogi Namikiri followed by Senei or Guren (optional Shoha or Shoha II in addition) and finished with Kaeshi Namikiri, that is a tasty combo and it makes me happy. Now I kinda wanna use the same source for my Meme, so I gonna ask:
What does the Samurai Rotation look like?
What are you using Kenki for?
Do you spam Shinten like a bitch?

[Rithy255]

Kaiten removal seemed pointless, I actually don't really mind the changes but can see why people are upset with removing kaiten it was a sort of gauge option gave samurai a bit more depth (similar to how overpower was just made into a boring OGCD), the "crit changes" I don't really matters much it doesn't really change how the job plays. I think a change that I disliked a lot was trick attack change, I really dislike Jobs just "clicking the 120 raid buff button" it's made raid buffs really boring and I think they should either be removed or reworked outside solo raid buffs or constant raid buffs such as, ast cards, DNC partner or bard songs. The core issue is this constant thing of like more then half of the DPS having this 120 buff, It's not even fun or unique to the Job to have that raid buff.

PLD's changes I think are generally needed in how current job design works, I'm not very happy about the rework coming soon, but we will wait and see, I think they've done some good changes recently and some changes that don't really make sense, I'm glad they're actually giving PLD another defensive and looking at utility, but at the same time I don't want PLD to feel like other tanks, which is most likely. I'll likely still main the Job or move to gunbreaker, I generally play PLD for multiple reasons though, Identity being one big factor, Liking tanks in general, liking magic but also melee ect.

I'm worried but at the same time I'm hopeful, they seem to be looking at its Issues even with how they don't block Dot's with Holy shelltron.

[ty_taurus]

Ahahaha xD ya made me a lil bit mad with the "It makes sense why they might see Kaiten as problematic, and removing it may allow them to breath stronger gameplay elements into SAM in the future."-Line, since Kaiten emulates to breathe into your attacks, which is why Kaitenless Samurai are best describted as Breathless Samurai, but it's all good^^

I'm thinking about a Meme to translate the wish of Kaiten returning, thankfully Samurai after 6.1 still can do cool stuff, my Example would be my Big Kahuna Combo: Ogi Namikiri followed by Senei or Guren (optional Shoha or Shoha II in addition) and finished with Kaeshi Namikiri, that is a tasty combo and it makes me happy. Now I kinda wanna use the same source for my Meme, so I gonna ask:
What does the Samurai Rotation look like?
What are you using Kenki for?
Do you spam Shinten like a bitch?

I don’t really understand your point. Thematically, sure, the name Kaiten may have some deep connection to the concept of a samurai, but that’s not what I was referencing.

I’m saying that having a button that can massively boost the potency of any GCD action you’ll ever create does push the design of the job in a corner as you have to consider how that influences the jobs rotation from multiple angles every time you add a weapon skill to it. There may be actions the design team wants to add to SAM but can’t because it messes up their rotation considering how it will increase the demand for Kaiten and this increase the amount of Kenki you spend every minute.

But again, even if that’s true, there was no point in sterilizing Kaiten now when those design ideas are not yet being implemented.

[Melethron123]

But again, even if that’s true, there was no point in sterilizing Kaiten now when those design ideas are not yet being implemented.

the design of SAM as a job revolves entirely around flexible skill usage. you can use your combos in any order (as long as you don't overcap stickers) and you can even use iaijutsu mid-combo instead of having to spend stickers as soon as you're finished building them. Kaiten was an ability that went against that design philosophy because it was always used before iaijutsu and never used before other actions (except the new namikiri cooldown, i suppose), which was exceptionally rigid. (always use here, and only use here)

this flexibility of skill usage is even present on SAM's gage, since it's one of the only two jobs whose gage can hold up to 4 uses of their regular spender (the other one being DNC).

removing kaiten was a way to double down on the flexible gameplay of SAM, and i personally find the job much more fun after the change.
also makes it less punishing for people with high ping, which is always a positive in my books. (not that devs care about that, given the state of MCH)

[Tetsujin]

Its likely never coming back.

I see the devs are allergic to fun after all and not to be trusted at their word. God, I surely wouldn't want to inconvenience their already oversimplified combat system with a damage boost skill they might have to design some things around NEXT EXPANSION! Glad to see the completely logical decision to gut the class 2 years before such dire changes came into play stands against their requested™ feedback. Guess keeping Kaiten might have taken more than 2 braincells and 4 employees for the entire class design team to maneuver around. Then again they thought Tenka-Goken was too hard to use as a cone so what was I expecting? We pay them 15 bucks monthly as a charity after all, they shouldn't expand on anything other than cutscene complexity and voice acting as far as the budget goes. Man, I wonder what other game had deaf developers who homogenized and simplified their game to hell while focusing solely on story? I'm sure it worked out great.

[ty_taurus]

the design of SAM as a job revolves entirely around flexible skill usage. you can use your combos in any order (as long as you don't overcap stickers) and you can even use iaijutsu mid-combo instead of having to spend stickers as soon as you're finished building them. Kaiten was an ability that went against that design philosophy because it was always used before iaijutsu and never used before other actions (except the new namikiri cooldown, i suppose), which was exceptionally rigid. (always use here, and only use here)

this flexibility of skill usage is even present on SAM's gage, since it's one of the only two jobs whose gage can hold up to 4 uses of their regular spender (the other one being DNC).

removing kaiten was a way to double down on the flexible gameplay of SAM, and i personally find the job much more fun after the change.
also makes it less punishing for people with high ping, which is always a positive in my books. (not that devs care about that, given the state of MCH)

I don't really know how well that argument holds up. If the job is all about flexibility, why can't I start a combo with Jinpu or Shifu? Why are your combos rigid in the order you use each weaponskill? Why can't you double up on the same combo and just get 2 of the same Sen rather than being forced to collect all 3? Even a zen garden needs rocks or it's just a pit of sand. My point is, having tools that offer some structure to a job's gameplay don't necessarily invalidate the otherwise flexible examples you described.

And even if we accept that logic wholeheartedly, it doesn't resolve the issues with the Kenki gauge feeling largely superfluous now. Kaiten provided several key structural points to its usage, and your ability to maintain positionals would reward you with Shintens to burn for additional damage, but you didn't want to just use them frivolously, or you'd end up without the resources to use Kaiten when your Iaijutsu came around. Now, all you really have to structure your Shinten usage is Senei, which is only once per minute. Beyond that, just use Shinten without a care in the world. It begs the question of whether or not the Kenki gauge even matters anymore. Why not just remove it, and make Shinten a cooldown, since Senei is already on a cooldown? Sure there's the mobility buttons, but its not like other jobs don't just have those on a charge system.

And that's not saying they won't make the kenki gauge more effective in 7.0, but we're just now getting into 6.3. We have a year to go of SAM's gauge being almost as bad as SCH's fey gauge, and you know the state of your job is critical if anything about it is comparable to the healers.

[CelestiCer]

... but I just don't understand why the non-problematic Kaiten now couldn't just wait for those changes. That said, whatever we do get, I think the biggest thing that feels off with SAM's gameplay is the lack of intuitive engagement with its kenki gauge, so hopefully whatever replaces Kaiten in the future will fill that void. Perhaps it will, or perhaps it won't.

I agree and many others agree with pretty much everything you stated.

Kaiten's removal at 6.1 solved nothing of the non-existing problems the Dev's claimed Samurai had like Button Bloat. Of which prior to it's removal? none of the Samurai mains complained about the dev's fictional Button Bloat issue nor Kaiten anything.

the design of SAM as a job revolves entirely around flexible skill usage. you can use your combos in any order (as long as you don't overcap stickers) and you can even use iaijutsu mid-combo instead of having to spend stickers as soon as you're finished building them. Kaiten was an ability that went against that design philosophy because it was always used before iaijutsu and never used before other actions

What in the...

Square never stated that SAMs design revolved around how flexible its skill usage was. They only mentioned SAM having design restrictions? hence Kaiten removed to make room for future changes or something new. 7+ months later and that something new? turned out to be... Nothing.

Kaiten casts for now? are essentially replaced with Shinten spamming and a deluded Gauge interaction gameplay. Some like dumbed down gameplay? but plenty like myself don't and it doesn't make our buffed DPS feel as rewarding as it did with Kaiten. Which also a contradiction since DPS output is based off Job difficulty and they just buffed us yet made our Job dumber.

Kaiten removal never changed our rotation either for how flexible you claim our job design was supposed to be. Freestyle-SAM still exists with or without it. And I agree that you can play SAM however you please and as improperly as you want for suboptimal damage if that's what you mean with Flexible... Kaiten did not stood in the way of playing Samurai... more...improper... ( wait what? ) As for ping? I live in EU playing on NA datacenters without ever having issues weaving Kaiten.

These arguments from either the players and Square Dev's are not only overused and contradicting, but also flawed. The beloved skill remains unanimously missed and its removal fixed nor improved nothing. It just killed the Gauge interaction gameplay we had that so many of us loved.

Samurai to me? had been made a lot less fun to play without Kaiten.

[Melethron123]

I don't really know how well that argument holds up. If the job is all about flexibility, why can't I start a combo with Jinpu or Shifu?

Shisui is right there for you, buddy

[Melethron123]

Square never stated that SAMs design revolved around how flexible its skill usage was. They only mentioned SAM having design restrictions? hence Kaiten removed to make room for future changes or something new. 7+ months later and that something new? turned out to be... Nothing.

if you need yoshi to tell you the philosophy behind the design of every job instead of being able to piece it together by looking at how the jobs are designed, idk what to tell you

did they state that kaiten was being removed so they could add something else 7+ months later or are people just assuming that's their reasoning? only thing i remember hearing was something about reducing the number of actions and people getting pissy that they didn't merge the shohas

[Melethron123]

And even if we accept that logic wholeheartedly, it doesn't resolve the issues with the Kenki gauge feeling largely superfluous now. Kaiten provided several key structural points to its usage, and your ability to maintain positionals would reward you with Shintens to burn for additional damage, but you didn't want to just use them frivolously, or you'd end up without the resources to use Kaiten when your Iaijutsu came around. Now, all you really have to structure your Shinten usage is Senei, which is only once per minute. Beyond that, just use Shinten without a care in the world. It begs the question of whether or not the Kenki gauge even matters anymore. Why not just remove it, and make Shinten a cooldown, since Senei is already on a cooldown? Sure there's the mobility buttons, but its not like other jobs don't just have those on a charge system.

during the course of building stickers you'd get around 60 kenki and kaiten costs 20. so nobody who's even trying to do a somewhat decent rotation would ever see themselves running out of kenki to use kaiten.

also, you don't use your shintens "willy-nilly" because you want to maximize the number of shintens during buff windows