Please stop removing Damage Over Time effects from every job, add more complexity

[Melethron123]

WAR lost a dot (Fracture). DRK lost a dot (Scourge). SCH lost multiple dots (Miasma, Miasma II, Shadow Flare). WHM lost a dot (Aero III was its own thing previously). MNK lost a dot (Touch of Death). DRG lost a dot (Phlebotomize). NIN lost 2 dots (Mutilate and Shadowfang).

You get the point. It's been so long in the making that it hasn't been noticed by anybody but those who have been here since HW.

that makes me even happier that they're removing dots. every job having to refresh a debuff every X seconds makes the game incredibly boring.

PS: MNK and DRG still have dots

[Shurrikhan]

DoTs serve one main function - they allow a very high potency attack to be placed within a rotation, but because the damage happens over a period you're discouraged from spamming it.

This. They're soft-CDs, that also happen to interact interestingly with target count and involve the tracking of time-to-kill (or, next-uptime-span). In terms of mechanical depth, they manage a ton of interaction for how simple they, themselves, are.

that makes me even happier that they're removing dots. every job having to refresh a debuff every X seconds makes the game incredibly boring.

Fair enough.

I'll just likely never understand how having something more, that conflicted with nothing and was about the least intrusive form of rotational anchor one could possibly have, could result in gameplay feeling less to anyone.

PS: MNK and DRG still have dots

Your point, though? If we removed main CDs from most jobs, I doubt anyone's reaction would be "Well, A and B still have them!" If whatever element of complexity was enjoyable to most players and has been removed, that some jobs still get to experience vestiges of it is not a satisfactory answer to "I preferred having more."

[Lyth]

DoTs can be a lot of fun, but you definitely don't need one on every job. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who don't particularly miss the scintillating gameplay of Fracture. There are also plenty of other maintenance effects in game that play out similarly.

The real question to ask is what does the maintenance effect do for your gameplay? If you take Death's Design for example, it's functionally no different from all the single target 'DoT' effects that we've seen through the ages. But the debuff timer actually ends up being a critically important part of your burst setup. If it's just a mandatory button press every 30 seconds for the sake of 'having a DoT', that's neither interesting nor challenging, and I'd rather the hotbar space be used in more innovative ways.

[Shurrikhan]

The real question to ask is what does the maintenance effect do for your gameplay? If you take Death's Design for example, it's functionally no different from all the single target 'DoT' effects that we've seen through the ages.

Kind of, but... at that point all buffs would be "functionally" DoTs.

Because Death's Design prefers its AoE form at just two targets or more, it doesn't really grant any cleave-related gameplay, though, and because it stacks up to twice its application duration, as per Warrior's Surging Tempest or Ninja's Huton (despite also being applied via a non-combo-breaking lone GCD), it doesn't significantly anchor rotation or generate any new noticeable choices or opportunity costs.

If it's just a mandatory button press every 30 seconds for the sake of 'having a DoT', that's neither interesting nor challenging, and I'd rather the hotbar space be used in more innovative ways.

Agreed.

DoTs ought to offer new decision-making. Warrior's Fracture, for instance, had that, but in a worst of ways (only worth using in rare conditions), while Monk's Fracture could use it also to enter different rotations, modulate (could speed up rotational matching by any number of GCDs, thanks to Fracture and Touch of Death) to sync macrorotation, or as a soft-CD by which to ignore positionals -- altogether an incredible amount of utility for such a seemingly simply tool because of having enough surrounding tools and purposes.

[Lyth]

Well no. Death's Design is critical to RPR's rotation. Enshroud has a 15 second recast and Arcane Circle only lasts for 20 seconds. To get a second Enshroud off under Arcane Circle, it has to be activated 5 seconds earlier (i.e. about 2 GCDs). Those 'dummy GCDs' have to come from either Shadow of Death or Harvest Moon. To get two dummy GCDs out of Shadow of Death without overcapping on Death's Design, you need to have about 9 seconds left on Death's Design when you enter your two minute burst phase. This means that you have to deliberately let the timer tick down in preparation for your burst. If you took that setup away, the debuff is just fluff.

In AoE, Death's Design has the added feature that it gives you gauge on mob death, which is a neat effect in itself.

I think that it's relatively easy for the dev team to come out and say 'behold, a 30 second GCD-based DoT' on every job. Part of the playerbase would struggle with it, but I think a sizeable portion of raiding players would manage it as automatically as breathing. The interesting part comes out of the interaction with other actions. Can I refresh all my DoTs with a single action (Iron Jaws)? Can I spread them to another target (Bane)? Can I freeze the timers on them? Can I consume them for burst? I think if you can't answer the question around 'why is this mechanic here on this job?' then you're better off without it.

[Melethron123]

Your point, though? If we removed main CDs from most jobs, I doubt anyone's reaction would be "Well, A and B still have them!" If whatever element of complexity was enjoyable to most players and has been removed, that some jobs still get to experience vestiges of it is not a satisfactory answer to "I preferred having more."

i'm willing to bet that DRG has a much more busy rotation now than it did in HW

[RyuDragnier]

i'm willing to bet that DRG has a much more busy rotation now than it did in HW

Less busy, actually. Back in HW you had flank and rear positionals you had to do, else you lost a LOT of potency, and Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust were completely random on which one you would get, so you were constantly having to prepare to move. Plus Heavy Thrust was still a thing and you had to get a flank positional to get that sweet damage buff from it. And that's not getting into certain other hells DRG had to deal with back in the day...

[Shurrikhan]

i'm willing to bet that DRG has a much more busy rotation now than it did in HW

Less, actually (less positioning, less tracking, less decision-making).

But that's beside the point. Phlebotomize didn't prevent Lance Mastery II any more than Heavy Thrust did (which coexisted with our 5-step rotation).

Plus Heavy Thrust was still a thing and you had to get a flank positional to get that sweet damage buff from it.

Technically, that part, like Impulse Drive giving combo progress only on rear attack, was removed before Heavensward (replaced with only the damage bonus, and with ID's positional being moved to Chaos Thrust). But, those positionals were a far larger portion of potency than they are today.

[Mikey_R]

Less busy, actually. Back in HW you had flank and rear positionals you had to do, else you lost a LOT of potency, and Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust were completely random on which one you would get, so you were constantly having to prepare to move. Plus Heavy Thrust was still a thing and you had to get a flank positional to get that sweet damage buff from it. And that's not getting into certain other hells DRG had to deal with back in the day...

HW has less positionals over the 10 step GCD than SB and later, 40% for HW as opposed to 50% for SB onwards. You can say, yes, you lost more potency, but in regards to being busy, potency is irrelevant as you either go for the positional or you don't. You could argue with the addition of True North, that makes you more busy as it is something else consider whilst doing a fight.

Also, Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive mandatory positionals were removed in 2.45:

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...cf56b933b99601

You still get the Heavy Thrust buff even from rear and Impulse Drive is now guaranteed to continue the combo, with the rear positional now being moved to Chaos Thrust for a potency increase.

As for which one is busier, I'm not going to comment, however, I don't think it is as cut and dry as you are making it out to be.

[Melethron123]

Less busy, actually. Back in HW you had flank and rear positionals you had to do, else you lost a LOT of potency, and Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust were completely random on which one you would get, so you were constantly having to prepare to move. Plus Heavy Thrust was still a thing and you had to get a flank positional to get that sweet damage buff from it. And that's not getting into certain other hells DRG had to deal with back in the day...

so... they had the same skills but fewer OGCDs, AKA: less busy