Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[kevin_satron]

a meme post, but everyone made it like an actual suggestion post and start firing at each other

[Shurrikhan]

There are people who...lets just say...are more than willing when the situation arises, to disregard the better angels of their nature and allow the more...adversarial facets of their personality free rein. They have that nature concealed or restrained, but when circumstances permit, or they are in an environment that enables that part of their personality, they feel free to..indulge.

Many years ago, a book called Lord of the Flies illustrated that behaviour. Given free rein or "tacit permission" to exhibit shall we say..less than civil attitudes, will gladly do so, especially when confronted with that behaviour, have a convenient excuse.

The mentality "They are a bad so its fine for me to scream abuse at them, swear at them, kick them, they need to git gud or GET OUT, they are BENEATH ME" comes to mind.

Gong back to WOW, I am reminded of two instances where a "raid leader" used dps charts to continually harass a player to the point they came in one day and bragged how they drove the player out of the game completely. They were PROUD that they "got rid of the dead weight", "weed out the bads".

What gets lost in the back and forth here is one immutable fact: that there is another human being at the other end of that keyboard.

I will also ask this: would those who make those kind of comments ever DARE do so to the other persons face? The answer is a flat no, as that highlights the other side to this kind of predisposition: those who do are also snivelling cowards..as is obvious: walking up to someone in public and screaming abuse at them has often severe consequences.

One of my own rules is simple: if you wouldnt have the guts to say it to their faces, in person, then dont say it.

Fair enough. A few counterpoints, though, if I may:

First, I doubt anyone who'd be willing to give the majority of "toxic" (especially in that gap between how we seem to allow the term to be defined as a community here, vs. how it seems less liberally applied/smeared elsewhere) comments given here would be any less willing to give the same tenor and content of comments in similar situations in real life.

(Granted, that claim relies heavily on where we draw that line. I obviously think we often include too much under that banner, or I'd have forgone the air quotes. If we were talking specifically about such crude language as would get a rapid ticket to the gaol here and is therefore subverted instead into euphemistic jabs, passive aggression, dead-eyed stares, etc., then some of it would remain behind. Emphasis on just "some," though.

I have no doubt people would use such language to one's face irl if a group of strangers who grouped up to specifically play, say, basketball at an advanced level for a small currency/credit prize that improved their opportunities to join into a larger range of other forms of recreation [about as close an equivalent as we can get to high end challenges in this similar form of recreation] and had someone show up unable to even dribble. Having one's time wasted because someone expected to be incorporated regardless of the conditions and agreements made in advance stings just as much face-to-face, after all.)

The mentality "They are a bad so its fine for me to scream abuse at them, swear at them, kick them, they need to git gud or GET OUT, they are BENEATH ME" comes to mind.

Though there are of course exceptions, I don't think that degree of disrespect almost ever comes from simply thinking/noting that another player is bad.

I suspect it typically comes instead from believing that the person has been disrespectful, and is tacitly putting themselves in a position where everyone is expected to just grit and bear not only the work of making up for that person but also incorporating them.

Which, may be reasonable. Consider: They set out to do [X], with [X], which has expectations of [X]. Having someone come along for X, with those expectations of X, but is only able to do [A], now means that they're having to fulfill higher expectations they had no good reason to believe they were signing up for and, worse, do so through/within an unintended, disjointed experience. A single person's jumping the line has hurt 7 others' experiences. You're joining up for a coordinated dance, and one of your members showed up drunk to the point of stumbling into the rest. Would that... not... be disrespectful?

Going back to WOW, I am reminded of two instances where a "raid leader" used dps charts to continually harass a player to the point they came in one day and bragged how they drove the player out of the game completely. They were PROUD that they "got rid of the dead weight", "weed out the bads".

Not that it makes WoW's or any other MMO community's any better, but I can name two similar incidents from here, and that's just from 2.1 to 4.1. Numbers were only a part of one of the two cases; the other was just fine getting the person out of MMOs over just their not target-swapping fast enough (they were a DRG, and the target swap orders would come out, almost always, right after Disembowel). Heck, though I wasn't part of his static, another friend was pushed out just because he occasionally asked the leader to consider less convoluted ("a bit easier to reliably pull off") strats.

Those who are that spiteful/vindictive are just going to find something else to latch onto or wield as a bludgeon. The question isn't what should or shouldn't be left out, but merely how their use is punished -- which can be done without care for what that tool was, anyways.

[VelKallor]

Shurrikhan: would you mind if I took this and chewed it over a day or so? You have given me some points that I really would like to think about.

Not that it makes WoW's or any other MMO community's any better, but I can name two similar incidents from here, and that's just from 2.1 to 4.1.

Ugh. I just hope to God there arent more like that out there....Im not a hardcore cynic, but garbage behaviour like this isnt helping...

[Bobby66]

There are people who...lets just say...are more than willing when the situation arises, to disregard the better angels of their nature and allow the more...adversarial facets of their personality free rein. They have that nature concealed or restrained, but when circumstances permit, or they are in an environment that enables that part of their personality, they feel free to..indulge.

Many years ago, a book called Lord of the Flies illustrated that behaviour. Given free rein or "tacit permission" to exhibit shall we say..less than civil attitudes, will gladly do so, especially when confronted with that behaviour, have a convenient excuse.

The mentality "They are a bad so its fine for me to scream abuse at them, swear at them, kick them, they need to git gud or GET OUT, they are BENEATH ME" comes to mind.

Gong back to WOW, I am reminded of two instances where a "raid leader" used dps charts to continually harass a player to the point they came in one day and bragged how they drove the player out of the game completely. They were PROUD that they "got rid of the dead weight", "weed out the bads".

What gets lost in the back and forth here is one immutable fact: that there is another human being at the other end of that keyboard.

I will also ask this: would those who make those kind of comments ever DARE do so to the other persons face? The answer is a flat no, as that highlights the other side to this kind of predisposition: those who do are also snivelling cowards..as is obvious: walking up to someone in public and screaming abuse at them has often severe consequences.

Do it in a workplace or other social setting? Hope you like handcuffs.

One of my own rules is simple: if you wouldnt have the guts to say it to their faces, in person, then dont say it.

You do know this community has a doc of player names to avoid when it comes to PF due to poor performance or lying about their progress. Granted, I know of one for WoW, but let us be real with or without parsing people will be people. While, you are right that overall most would not say it to the persons face, and most do not care to learn about the issues a person may be dealing with behind the keyboard. A player is under no obligation to be mindful or considerate to a persons feelings or issues. If someone has something going on that may impact how they play they should speak up. Sure some may laugh or even remove them, but for the most part I do think people would be more tolerate of course depending on the content. As much as people try to frame it in the online setting is not a 1:1 analog to real life, we are able to get away with things that we would not IRL and being more harsh and our blunt is simply one of those things. Trying to impose IRL standards to an online world is a foolish endeavor in my honest opinion. In the online world the only person you really have control over is yourself, that is why many say people need some thicker skin when interacting online. Cause in the end like it or not we are the ones that choose how we handle something, we can either take it in stride or allow it to negatively impact us. Either way I can say for certain one thing the person that made the comments does not care either way, and after they zone out you will forever be out of their minds, even if they say some of the most vile and hateful things. You are not even a footnote to them.

Overall while an unpopular mindset, people that take offence are the those that create toxic behavior, cause it fuels the interaction. I say this as someone that use to do shit in WoW to get a rile out of people when I was a kid. I was that rogue that would gank people for hours red is dead. I had no friends or life, I would sit all day after school and my HW and play WoW killing people for hours. I have made people quit the game, I have crashed and ruined RP events, as a kid I did all of this because they gave me what I wanted attention. I look back and I see how much of an asshole I was, and how petty my actions were, but I also do not think I would have done it for as long as I did if I did not get the notoriety I did. I thought it was cool how I had bounties out of my head, or people would talk about me in chat, or how people would message me crying to stop. What I am saying is do not feed the trolls comes into play here. Do not let people know that you are offended or hurt, take your lick and keep your head up high. If you do not let people know the action bothers you the action does lose a lot of its luster. Without the reaction it gets old pretty quick.

In short people will be assholes, with or without a tool. Banning the tool because people suck is silly cause we still have to deal with shitty people may as well allow people the freedom is using a tool even if it means it gives people more ammo so to speak use in an assholic manner.

[Shurrikhan]

Shurrikhan: would you mind if I took this and chewed it over a day or so? You have given me some points that I really would like to think about.

Of course I don't mind. And thanks for tolerating my bumbling/overlong questions!

[VelKallor]

Of course I don't mind. And thanks for tolerating my bumbling/overlong questions!

Just the opposite: youve asked some questions that have no easy answers. As it should be, this is a matter that should not be taken lightly.

[Magikazam]

Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

The only saving grace here is that FFXIV won't allow it past a point. I think the devs main stance against damage meters and the like is that they know that if they were built in, they'd have to spend a lot more time (and money) enforcing the rules against mostly the people who clamored the most for the said damage meters and other similar things.

That way lies madness. No, let's not go there.

Nice strawman. While I agree WoW had a more ''toxic'' environment, people also had thicker skin. FFXIV has its own kind of toxicity. The only major difference really is that people will say that you don't know shit and that you're wrong instead of just insulting you directly.

Also im kinda tired of how FFXIV just use WoW has a scapegoat for basically anything, to a point I doubt some people even played WoW and just start assuming those few ultra-toxic outlier behaviors was the normal things.

Hell whenever you critize something about the game people usually play the ''But WoW had this thing but worst'' cards

[VelKallor]

While I agree WoW had a more ''toxic'' environment

Has.

Not had.

Also im kinda tired of how FFXIV just use WoW has a scapegoat for basically anything, to a point I doubt some people even played WoW and just start assuming those few ultra-toxic outlier behaviors was the normal things.

Noting what is happening now, and the general atmosphere that has prevailed for at least several years is not 'scapegoating".

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...o-toxic/554129

Because so much changed, I decided the best way to understand the game would be to roll a new character and level from 1-120 and I chose a mage, a difficult class with lots of cool downs to manage. I was looking forward to running my favorite dungeons as I leveled, but was immediately confronted with players kicking me from dungeons as early as level 45. Was I AFK or standing in fire? No, the problem was that I wasn’t doing enough damage according to Details or Recount or whatever series of addons were being used to grade DPS. I began to start dungeons by explaining that I was still learning, but then the kicks came even faster, with no players willing to run a low level dungeon with someone who wasn’t doing max damage. I turned to solo questing, but I find this game boring when I can’t interact with other players so I left Jazzystar in Legion and got back on my main.

This says a LOT

The real world is harsh enough and I came back to WoW for an escape, just to find the community hounding me about performance and metrics more than my manager does at my demanding, productivity-focused tech job.

Thius is ONE reply: draw your own conclusions

Listen OP some of us didn’t take “breaks” and don’t have the time or patience to wait for quitters who come back to learn from their mistakes. You can easily find guides and videos online to learn about the content you want to do before wasting everyone’s time by failing it.

Last one

I’ll vouch for the OP. I’ve leveled 2 or 3 120’s in the past couple of months, and I’ve seen this plenty of times already. I’m not grinding only dungeons on my route, but just in the past month alone its been the case at least a dozen times that a dps gets kicked because they’re not high enough dps or a healer can’t keep up with a heirloom tank that is pulling 2+ packs at a time. It’s insane

Even more insane is that these players often get kicked with no reason as to why until after they’ve been removed and some jackass insults the player for not being good enough in a leveling dungeon. Because, of course, players can’t even spend the effort to think about the vote kick and just default to yes. If you want to just speed through content then go get your guildmates and speed through content. Don’t kick new players who might just want to enjoy the game. The game makes that hard enough already.

But yeah I am making it all up.

[Bobby66]

Has.

Not had.

Well every online community has or fosters some level of a "toxic" environment. The degree largely depends on the person though to say one has more or less is largely subjective cause it depends on the person you ask.

[Magikazam]

Has.

Not had.

Yea, yea, yea be sure to go to bed before the evil WoW toxic bogeyman come eat you or whatever.