Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[LittleImp]

So you are saying the causal player has the right to force their standards of play on others, but when it goes the other way around it is toxic?

This is the crux of what drives so much of this huh.

Some people feel genuine interpersonal aggression towards people who play the game badly, as if the act of playing the game badly is some kind of slight against them. Being inexperienced, or being bad at a game, is not an inherently malicious action.

[Bobby66]

This is the crux of what drives so much of this huh.

Some people feel genuine interpersonal aggression towards people who play the game badly, as if the act of playing the game badly is some kind of slight against them. Being inexperienced, or being bad at a game, is not an inherently malicious action.

You are correct, but telling someone to perform for the role they queued up for is also not inherently toxic. I would even go so far as saying removing someone that does not mesh with the group for w/e reason is not inherently toxic either. People are free to play how and with whom they want. Yet it seems for some reason depending on the content that only goes one way, I think it is should go both ways no matter the content. Just let the group choose, give players the tools to better police their own experience. As I mentioned not wanting to play with someone is not inherently toxic, some are cool with carrying others that is fine, others are not. This does not make the former a inherently better person or the latter a worse person. All it does it just show how people have different standards, what is toxic or malicious is how the person goes about it. Sure people will go about it harshly not going to say that is not the case, but for the most part it probably would be handled via the silent removal of the player, or maybe with a brief explanation as to why they are being removed.

Kicks are not personal most of the time, no need to make it personal.

[Zebraoracle]

This is the crux of what drives so much of this huh.

Some people feel genuine interpersonal aggression towards people who play the game badly, as if the act of playing the game badly is some kind of slight against them. Being inexperienced, or being bad at a game, is not an inherently malicious action.

Really twisting their words around while snipping a specific part of their post out to respond to, huh? Answer the question they asked. If it's okay for toxic casuals (yes, I make a distinction because there IS a difference, and I wish the other pro-parser people in this thread would as well, as a normal casual isn't going to be the target of all of this hypothetical parser aggression) to cry about not being inspected by parsing tools while they leech off the group that's carrying them, why is it so bad when the shoe's on the other foot? This is the whole TOS thing again where if there's a discrepancy of playstyle, kick the person that doesn't fit. Happens now already, and we don't even have in-game parsers.

This goes all the way back to the whole argument that happened a while back where people shouldn't be expected to carry leeches through duties, and everyone should respect their fellow players' time enough to put in the minimum effort of at least trying. People that actually do that aren't going to be targeted by parse Hitler (extreme outlier crazies aside, of course, but those exist in *everything* and you CANNOT account for extremely niche circumstances) like you're all claiming. The people that are "elitist" enough to be worrying about dungeon parsing are 1. Not even going to be doing that content because they don't need to, and 2. The toxic assholes that are going to be toxic REGARDLESS of an in-game parser, the parser didn't suddenly make them that way.

[LittleImp]

Really twisting their words around while snipping a specific part of their post out to respond to, huh? Answer the question they asked. If it's okay for toxic casuals (yes, I make a distinction because there IS a difference, and I wish the other pro-parser people in this thread would as well, as a normal casual isn't going to be the target of all of this hypothetical parser aggression) to cry about not being inspected by parsing tools while they leech off the group that's carrying them, why is it so bad when the shoe's on the other foot? This is the whole TOS thing again where if there's a discrepancy of playstyle, kick the person that doesn't fit. Happens now already, and we don't even have in-game parsers.

They edited their post while I was replying to it, dude. The text in the quote in my post is the entire content of their original post. If you notice, most of their posts have a 'Last edited' time on them.

People like you will characterize anyone who is bad as a 'toxic casual' or a 'leech', and then you use that characterization to justify being toxic.

This goes all the way back to the whole argument that happened a while back where people shouldn't be expected to carry leeches through duties, and everyone should respect their fellow players' time enough to put in the minimum effort of at least trying. People that actually do that aren't going to be targeted by parse Hitler (extreme outlier crazies aside, of course, but those exist in *everything* and you CANNOT account for extremely niche circumstances) like you're all claiming. The people that are "elitist" enough to be worrying about dungeon parsing are 1. Not even going to be doing that content because they don't need to, and 2. The toxic assholes that are going to be toxic REGARDLESS of an in-game parser, the parser didn't suddenly make them that way.

This thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over parses in dungeons. Are we even reading the same thread lmao

[Bobby66]

They edited their post while I was replying to it, dude. The text in the quote in my post is the entire content of their original post. If you notice, most of their posts have a 'Last edited' time on them.

People like you will characterize anyone who is bad as a 'toxic casual' or a 'leech', and then you use that characterization to justify being toxic.



This thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over parses in dungeons. Are we even reading the same thread lmao

My edited posts just add stuff, I did not remove anything. I would also like to know the answer why is it okay for one but not the other. You also quoted the question, so if you would be so kind.

End of the day if we are being fair, neither side is inherently toxic. It is how someone goes about it that makes it toxic, but that is what the ToS is for, it meant to punish those that cross the line.

[LittleImp]

My edited posts just have stuff not removed added, I did not remove anything. I would also like to know the answer why is it okay for one but not the other.

You seriously couldn't parse an answer to your question out of what I said there?

Playing badly is not 'forcing a standard of play'. Playing badly is not inherently toxic.

(Creating an arbitrary standard of play, which has nothing to do with the actual developer defined clear requirements of a piece of content, and then enforcing it on players and using it as a justification to be toxic) versus (playing the game badly). Equivocating these two things is pure absurdity.

[Bobby66]

You seriously couldn't parse an answer to your question out of what I said there?

Playing badly is not 'forcing a standard of play'. Playing badly is not inherently toxic.

(Creating an arbitrary standard of play, which has nothing to do with the actual developer defined clear requirements of a piece of content, and then enforcing it on players and using it as a justification to be toxic) versus (playing the game badly). Equivocating these two things is pure absurdity.

I had a generally idea, but did not want to make the assumption that you were the type of player finds the only standard of play that matters is if the content is cleared or not. Your logic does dictate that say a dps that is doing less damage than a healer is okay if you have enough damage to clear the content that is all that matters.

I do not think I ever said playing badly is inherently toxic, but playing poorly under the guise of whelp it is easy content what does it matter. To me personally that is all types of wrong, and following your logic they should be entitled to the time of the group because it is causal content. Sorry, no matter the content I hold people up the same standard I hold myself. I give it is my all no matter what. I am a dirty grey parser also, but I try in all forms of content, since this is not just about my own personal experience it is a shared experience with others that I happened to find myself grouped with.

As I said many time neither side is inherently toxic, it is just how they go about it. If someone is trying and or new sure I am more understanding, but if someone is just doing their 1-2-3 combo because they cannot be bothered to try in easy content to me that is toxic. Type of content should not matter, we should all respect one another enough to give it our all and try our best no matter the content. Please understand, that does not mean I think it is fair or right belittle the person, though I also do fall in the camp that getting upset over what a stranger says is kind of silly, but I understand it takes a lot to get under my skin.

I'm honestly getting pretty confused here. People have been presenting an in-game meter like it's some kind of answer to 'toxic casuals'.

Do you encounter a lot of 'toxic casuals' refusing to carry their weight in high-end content? Wouldn't restricting the meter to high-end content only make it kind of useless for combating toxic casualism?

For the most part I think that is what he and the majority want, for the parse to be added to savage and ultimate content. I do think myself and few others are the only ones that think that is just too messy and just add it across the board and let the GM enforce the ToS.

[Midareyukki]

This is toxic, skill is not required to do casual content just carry people no matter what.

That explains the guys throwing a fit over people mathing how many numbers their fictional playable pixels does.

I'm casual too, my parses are so gray they put Forchenault's pubes to shame, and I agree with the existence of parsing. Whatever issue comes from it would be there regardless, just transformed.

Conservation of Internet Toxicity: Negativity cannot be destroyed, only transformed.

[Zebraoracle]

They edited their post while I was replying to it, dude. The text in the quote in my post is the entire content of their original post. If you notice, most of their posts have a 'Last edited' time on them.

People like you will characterize anyone who is bad as a 'toxic casual' or a 'leech', and then you use that characterization to justify being toxic.



This thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over parses in dungeons. Are we even reading the same thread lmao

If they added after your quote, then sure, my bad. Still doesn't change much.

I like how you're also ignoring the fact that I said I differentiate between casual and toxic casual, when there's a very clear difference. Someone who's bad and trying? Not a toxic casual. I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me and other people in the pro-parsing argument in with the likes of Firemage when there's a very clear distinction between our stances, thanks. I'd like to believe you have enough sense to know not everyone is Firemage.

The thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over the idea of parses being added, on the anti-parse side, too. And most of their arguments have been very... not good, sooo...

And once again I ask, why is this an all or nothing situation? Ikara said it, I've said it, we don't necessarily need parsers in dungeons/normal trials/normal raids. Why are we arguing like this is all or nothing when the possibility of adding hypotheticals to this hypothetical argument exists?