Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

[LittleImp]

Funny thing in most cases the worst form of "toxic" behavior people will go through is being told they suck and maybe should uninstall the game. That is the worse case, most likely what will happen is what happens now silent kicks. Sure, we might see an uptick on people being bared from PF groups due to past performance. Willing to grant all these points, yet let me ask. Does it really destroy the game if someone calls you trash? Does it really have such a negative impact if someone kicks you from the group? I would say instead of a healthier source of self-worth many just need to have some self-worth to begin with and stop letting trolls and jerks online impact their state on mind and being. Since let us be real that is what this really boils down to people do not want to get their feelings hurt by "toxic" behavior. If this level of toxic behavior is enough to get people to quit or ruin their enjoy of the game, then idk what to say.

Yeah, some guy who gets home from work and plays this game for 4 hours a week fumbling his way through MSQ dungeons probably isn't going to be happy getting called trash and kicked from a duty that you can literally clear by rolling your face across the keyboard. You know, the kind of behavior that gets complained about pretty much daily in WoW communities. This game is OVERWHELMINGLY casual, and you will absolutely ruin peoples experiences if you try to foster any kind of unnecessary competitiveness in trivial duties.

Yeah, people need to get some self-worth that isn't fragile enough to be broken by some stranger on the internet who might say your DPS is bad.

Isn't it funny how we went from 'Meters don't cause toxicity' to 'The ToS will still protect us' to 'People need to have thicker skin and deal with being called trash', while half the pro-meter side of the argument has just been posting toxic nonsense the entire time. Such a compelling position.

Again, the greatest argument against official meters is a 5 minute perusal of this thread. Meters will never be added to this game in an official capacity. If you want the player-base to get better, go teach and help people.

[Bobby66]

Yeah, some guy who gets home from work and plays this game for 4 hours a week fumbling his way through MSQ dungeons probably isn't going to be happy getting called trash and kicked from a duty that you can literally clear by rolling your face across the keyboard. You know, the kind of behavior that gets complained about pretty much daily in WoW communities. This game is OVERWHELMINGLY casual, and you will absolutely ruin peoples experiences if you try to foster any kind of unnecessary competitiveness in trivial duties.




Isn't it funny how we went from 'Meters don't cause toxicity' to 'The ToS will still protect us' to 'People need to have thicker skin and deal with being called trash', while half the pro-meter side of the argument has just been posting toxic nonsense the entire time. Such a compelling position.

Again, the greatest argument against official meters is a 5 minute perusal of this thread. Meters will never be added to this game in an official capacity. If you want the player-base to get better, go teach and help people.

So you are saying the causal player has the right to force their standards of play on others, but when it goes the other way around it is toxic? That being said extreme cases can and will still be punished by the ToS, sure other forms of harassment may be considered harassment by the player but maybe not by the ToS or the GM so certain things will not be punished like being removed from the group. Is that really a big deal?

Sure the game is causal, but that does not mean people should get a free pass. Some are okay with carrying people through content, so I am but they have to be trying. I am not going to carry the person that only has 4 hours to play and does an MSQ dungeon while only doing their 1-2-3 combo and that is it. You may view that as toxic, but I view not respecting the time of the others you are playing with to at the very least try is far more toxic.

[LittleImp]

So you are saying the causal player has the right to force their standards of play on others, but when it goes the other way around it is toxic?

This is the crux of what drives so much of this huh.

Some people feel genuine interpersonal aggression towards people who play the game badly, as if the act of playing the game badly is some kind of slight against them. Being inexperienced, or being bad at a game, is not an inherently malicious action.

[Bobby66]

This is the crux of what drives so much of this huh.

Some people feel genuine interpersonal aggression towards people who play the game badly, as if the act of playing the game badly is some kind of slight against them. Being inexperienced, or being bad at a game, is not an inherently malicious action.

You are correct, but telling someone to perform for the role they queued up for is also not inherently toxic. I would even go so far as saying removing someone that does not mesh with the group for w/e reason is not inherently toxic either. People are free to play how and with whom they want. Yet it seems for some reason depending on the content that only goes one way, I think it is should go both ways no matter the content. Just let the group choose, give players the tools to better police their own experience. As I mentioned not wanting to play with someone is not inherently toxic, some are cool with carrying others that is fine, others are not. This does not make the former a inherently better person or the latter a worse person. All it does it just show how people have different standards, what is toxic or malicious is how the person goes about it. Sure people will go about it harshly not going to say that is not the case, but for the most part it probably would be handled via the silent removal of the player, or maybe with a brief explanation as to why they are being removed.

Kicks are not personal most of the time, no need to make it personal.

[Zebraoracle]

This is the crux of what drives so much of this huh.

Some people feel genuine interpersonal aggression towards people who play the game badly, as if the act of playing the game badly is some kind of slight against them. Being inexperienced, or being bad at a game, is not an inherently malicious action.

Really twisting their words around while snipping a specific part of their post out to respond to, huh? Answer the question they asked. If it's okay for toxic casuals (yes, I make a distinction because there IS a difference, and I wish the other pro-parser people in this thread would as well, as a normal casual isn't going to be the target of all of this hypothetical parser aggression) to cry about not being inspected by parsing tools while they leech off the group that's carrying them, why is it so bad when the shoe's on the other foot? This is the whole TOS thing again where if there's a discrepancy of playstyle, kick the person that doesn't fit. Happens now already, and we don't even have in-game parsers.

This goes all the way back to the whole argument that happened a while back where people shouldn't be expected to carry leeches through duties, and everyone should respect their fellow players' time enough to put in the minimum effort of at least trying. People that actually do that aren't going to be targeted by parse Hitler (extreme outlier crazies aside, of course, but those exist in *everything* and you CANNOT account for extremely niche circumstances) like you're all claiming. The people that are "elitist" enough to be worrying about dungeon parsing are 1. Not even going to be doing that content because they don't need to, and 2. The toxic assholes that are going to be toxic REGARDLESS of an in-game parser, the parser didn't suddenly make them that way.

[LittleImp]

Really twisting their words around while snipping a specific part of their post out to respond to, huh? Answer the question they asked. If it's okay for toxic casuals (yes, I make a distinction because there IS a difference, and I wish the other pro-parser people in this thread would as well, as a normal casual isn't going to be the target of all of this hypothetical parser aggression) to cry about not being inspected by parsing tools while they leech off the group that's carrying them, why is it so bad when the shoe's on the other foot? This is the whole TOS thing again where if there's a discrepancy of playstyle, kick the person that doesn't fit. Happens now already, and we don't even have in-game parsers.

They edited their post while I was replying to it, dude. The text in the quote in my post is the entire content of their original post. If you notice, most of their posts have a 'Last edited' time on them.

People like you will characterize anyone who is bad as a 'toxic casual' or a 'leech', and then you use that characterization to justify being toxic.

This goes all the way back to the whole argument that happened a while back where people shouldn't be expected to carry leeches through duties, and everyone should respect their fellow players' time enough to put in the minimum effort of at least trying. People that actually do that aren't going to be targeted by parse Hitler (extreme outlier crazies aside, of course, but those exist in *everything* and you CANNOT account for extremely niche circumstances) like you're all claiming. The people that are "elitist" enough to be worrying about dungeon parsing are 1. Not even going to be doing that content because they don't need to, and 2. The toxic assholes that are going to be toxic REGARDLESS of an in-game parser, the parser didn't suddenly make them that way.

This thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over parses in dungeons. Are we even reading the same thread lmao

[Bobby66]

They edited their post while I was replying to it, dude. The text in the quote in my post is the entire content of their original post. If you notice, most of their posts have a 'Last edited' time on them.

People like you will characterize anyone who is bad as a 'toxic casual' or a 'leech', and then you use that characterization to justify being toxic.



This thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over parses in dungeons. Are we even reading the same thread lmao

My edited posts just add stuff, I did not remove anything. I would also like to know the answer why is it okay for one but not the other. You also quoted the question, so if you would be so kind.

End of the day if we are being fair, neither side is inherently toxic. It is how someone goes about it that makes it toxic, but that is what the ToS is for, it meant to punish those that cross the line.

[LittleImp]

My edited posts just have stuff not removed added, I did not remove anything. I would also like to know the answer why is it okay for one but not the other.

You seriously couldn't parse an answer to your question out of what I said there?

Playing badly is not 'forcing a standard of play'. Playing badly is not inherently toxic.

(Creating an arbitrary standard of play, which has nothing to do with the actual developer defined clear requirements of a piece of content, and then enforcing it on players and using it as a justification to be toxic) versus (playing the game badly). Equivocating these two things is pure absurdity.

[Midareyukki]

This is toxic, skill is not required to do casual content just carry people no matter what.

That explains the guys throwing a fit over people mathing how many numbers their fictional playable pixels does.

I'm casual too, my parses are so gray they put Forchenault's pubes to shame, and I agree with the existence of parsing. Whatever issue comes from it would be there regardless, just transformed.

Conservation of Internet Toxicity: Negativity cannot be destroyed, only transformed.

[Zebraoracle]

They edited their post while I was replying to it, dude. The text in the quote in my post is the entire content of their original post. If you notice, most of their posts have a 'Last edited' time on them.

People like you will characterize anyone who is bad as a 'toxic casual' or a 'leech', and then you use that characterization to justify being toxic.



This thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over parses in dungeons. Are we even reading the same thread lmao

If they added after your quote, then sure, my bad. Still doesn't change much.

I like how you're also ignoring the fact that I said I differentiate between casual and toxic casual, when there's a very clear difference. Someone who's bad and trying? Not a toxic casual. I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me and other people in the pro-parsing argument in with the likes of Firemage when there's a very clear distinction between our stances, thanks. I'd like to believe you have enough sense to know not everyone is Firemage.

The thread is quite literally full of people who mald and obsess over the idea of parses being added, on the anti-parse side, too. And most of their arguments have been very... not good, sooo...

And once again I ask, why is this an all or nothing situation? Ikara said it, I've said it, we don't necessarily need parsers in dungeons/normal trials/normal raids. Why are we arguing like this is all or nothing when the possibility of adding hypotheticals to this hypothetical argument exists?