PLD changes; thoughts?

[HyperiusUltima]

No comment until I can actually play it. Removing DoTs is more homogenization to me.

I wouldn't call it homogenization when it's directly causing the job to underperform due to rigidity of a rotation. Look at Shadowbringers SMN - it did good damage, but one death and it was severely punishing. With PLD, it's not the same, but it's still shown in the fact that DoTs haven't interacted well with PLD's rotation, causing stringent issues to crop up like Atonement Drift, which moves the FoF Window further out of Raid Buffs while you're trying to keep the DoT lined up with it for the end of the Physical Rotation. At least 25% of PLD's damage is from DoTs as well - with the removal of DoTs, it allows PLD to be a bit more free in regards to FoF usage, not having to worry about DoT upkeep all the time when it comes to timing between BoT and Goring(which you did clip a good bit of the time anyhow).

A lot of people are fearmongering about "Oh it's going to become just like WAR!" because of how the development team has treated DRK when in reality it's not going to be with the changes they're already making to its kit.

Take a look a current PLD, and tell me: Do you see something that isn't clunky or missing?

- 2 Burst Windows(FoF and Req)
- 63s rotation
- Missing a whole defensive
- Lackluster/Situational Abilities(Veil, Cover, Passage)

I think this is going to be a better rework for PLD when it comes to taking damage and could potentially fix rotational issues that caused it to underperform(outside of fight design). From the site that shall not be named, GNB/DRK have been the go-to tanks due to the DPS Checks this tier, especially during Week 1 due to P8S's very tight enrage before the HP nerf.

[HyperiusUltima]

The whole 'we will give exact values at a later date' thing is really annoying at times like this, but here's my copium: Goring>HS is a MP dump, and we're MP negative now (Riot Blade no longer gives MP). RA>Atonement is our MP restore combo, but is lower potency. Thus, our gameplay revolves around 'restore MP outside of burst windows, so you have enough to Req inside burst window (and to Goring>HS when needed). This would also allow for some tricks like 'I'll restore MP earlier, so I can get a Holy Spirit banked for this GCD of downtime here', potentially. FOF's probably dead to compensate for this, which is probably fine in this context.

Copium is that POA applies it's effect in a circle, because people L O V E to dodge that cone AOE when we OGCD weave it for a split second. With the change to Goring>HS we already know, we'll be able to get a HS (and therefore it's healing component) once every 10sec, which is a big buff to the PLD selfsustain, but also allows us to force-proc Veil every 4 GCDs, unless we're unable to cos MP.

Some are saying 'HS proc will just be GNB ammo spender' which I can see, but ironically, I'm actually hoping for it to be like Raiju, spend it on the next GCD or lose it. This would turn it into a sort of '4 step GCD combo', and assuming we're changed to get one Atonement instead of three from Royal, we'd have two 4 step combos to work through, where every other tank has 3 step combos, which would feel at least a little different. The DRG of tanks, as it were. It'd also mean that we've got a 10s long combo, so 4 of those is 40s, then 4 Holy Spirits, Confiteor, Blade x 3, that's another 20s for our burst window, and that's the full 60s rotation solved. Though, they might change things up a bit regarding Req, so it's easier to get the Blade part of the burst into the raidbuffs (it's a bit hard to get all 8 GCDs since they dont scale with skillspeed).

Maybe Req is deleted, and Confiteor is a flat 60s CD that triggers Blades, so that's a replacement 10s duration combo for the raidbuff window? So our combo use would either be Confiteor, 2 Gorings and 3 RAs, or Confiteor, 3 Gorings, 2 RAs, based on how much MP restore Blade combo and Atonement combo give us. This would also allow us to shift the RA and Goring's around within that 50s, to better accomodate downtime (assuming they don't just make the bosses 100% uptime for the rest of forever)

I'm hoping they go with something like this to keep PLD's flexibility and expand upon it. Even if this is theorycrafting, it's a good idea since there is a thing as mechanical downtime. Whichever route they go, I'm looking forward to seeing it since this looks like a good change is coming.

[Iedarus]

I'm a little spooked because of the DoT removal, but PLD is one of those jobs where having a DoT isn't really crucial to its identity so I'll give it a pass. Everything else looks good, though. Personally I don't care about the two minute burst as long as the job is at least FUN. Looking at you, healers. >.>

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm hoping they go with something like this to keep PLD's flexibility and expand upon it. Even if this is theorycrafting, it's a good idea since there is a thing as mechanical downtime. Whichever route they go, I'm looking forward to seeing it since this looks like a good change is coming.

If they go with exactly what I think it'll turn out as, I think I'd actually be rather satisfied with it, so I hope I'm fairly on the mark. The idea of having MP management as a core gameplay concept on the tank that has a Magic focused half of it's rotation seems like a good (and tbh obvious) design choice, and phases of 'you can't target boss' would actually benefit PLD in that regard, as MP restores over time, leading to less RA>Atones to restore MP and more Goring>HS to spend it, more damage. Just wish they'd do something about Clemency

[Gserpent]

I thought they said they were doing gameplay of the PLD lol, oh well...

I think In general Goring blade is going to give you a 10% general damage buff on a 30 seconds that can stack up to 60 like warriors, likely FOF removed or reworked into goring blade.

Hopefully they're making DV/POA more useable and less clunky Imo, now we know they're adjusting the defensive's I also hope they buff cover somehow making it actually a good ability, With bulwark being added in it's likely going to be your "block ability" as I think shelltron/holyshelltron are just going to become normal mitigation abilities from what we've heard.

Really confused on the finishing combo gives you a Holy spirit charge thing? I think it's going to be similar to how WAR can store up charges of fellcleave, instead of being tied to gauge it will be tied to doing your rotation.

Nah, Square-Enix wussed out like they always do. They'll tease changes but apparently they're just in stark, unmanning *terror* of the idea of players seeing their changes and going "wow, those suck, what are you thinking?" for a week or two prior to the patch.

It's ridiculous. Let players throw their hissy fits and do what you were planning on doing anyway. It's not like us pitching temper tantrums over changes we dislike here or anywhere else matters worth a fig. So either put up, or shut up. I would honestly prefer they have just said "PLD changes are coming, you will see what they are in the patch notes" than this stupid limp-wristed nonsense.

As for the changes themselves? Divine Might sounds more like GNB carts, so PLD is apparently copying GNB in some aspects (Bulwark is going to be I Can't Believe It's Not Camouflage!, with blocking instead of parrying) and WAR in others. If Goring Blade loses the dot, then I don't see a purpose to keeping Goring Blade at all... though I like its animation and sound a lot more than Royal Authority's weird magical princess spin. If they're copying elements from GNB, especially wrt "cartridges", it would make sense to only have one combo, since GNB only has the one combo. No word on Atonement, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just removed it (it's also a really weak animation) and just had the free snowflakes be the effective replacement.

No word on oath gauge. I'm really hoping they came up with something other than "must autoswing constantly" for it, especially if they're still going to tie sheltron and intervention to it. PLD losing *defensive* usability due to forced downtime is a serious issue for them in the way they currently design fights. It would make a lot more sense to just make intervention and sheltron free and share the same cooldown...

See, this is why I wish they'd stop being so goddamn wishy-washy and just fucking give us the details. Numbers don't matter that much, I'm fine with letting that hold off until patch notes, but not even letting us get an idea of what the new playstyle will be is just... man, it's straight up bad community management. And this is the game that won "best community support"? Yeah, whatever...

[Simple_Barghest]

They removed the DoT but left Goring Blade.
What I hope this means: That Goring Blade will be what triggers Divine Might, creating an MP Spend Combo.
Thereby going 1-2-Goring Blade-Holy Spirit, with PLD then alternating between this combo and the MP Gain Combo with 1-2-Royal Authority-Atonement.

What it will likely be:
Fight or Flight is removed, and Goring Blade gives the FoF buff. Divine Might will be triggered by both GB and RA, resulting in a very clunky weaving of Holy Spirit.

What I know:
Nothing except that auto-attack is pain.

[moroarda]

I wouldn't call it homogenization when it's directly causing the job to underperform due to rigidity of a rotation. Look at Shadowbringers SMN - it did good damage, but one death and it was severely punishing. With PLD, it's not the same, but it's still shown in the fact that DoTs haven't interacted well with PLD's rotation, causing stringent issues to crop up like Atonement Drift, which moves the FoF Window further out of Raid Buffs while you're trying to keep the DoT lined up with it for the end of the Physical Rotation. At least 25% of PLD's damage is from DoTs as well - with the removal of DoTs, it allows PLD to be a bit more free in regards to FoF usage, not having to worry about DoT upkeep all the time when it comes to timing between BoT and Goring(which you did clip a good bit of the time anyhow).

A lot of people are fearmongering about "Oh it's going to become just like WAR!" because of how the development team has treated DRK when in reality it's not going to be with the changes they're already making to its kit.

Take a look a current PLD, and tell me: Do you see something that isn't clunky or missing?

- 2 Burst Windows(FoF and Req)
- 63s rotation
- Missing a whole defensive
- Lackluster/Situational Abilities(Veil, Cover, Passage)

I think this is going to be a better rework for PLD when it comes to taking damage and could potentially fix rotational issues that caused it to underperform(outside of fight design). From the site that shall not be named, GNB/DRK have been the go-to tanks due to the DPS Checks this tier, especially during Week 1 due to P8S's very tight enrage before the HP nerf.

I'm confused as to how this impacts whether or not something is homogenization.

Homogenization is the trend of things becoming more alike. The changes, as they've been spoken about so far and in the context of SE who seem to really enjoy homogenization (just ask healers), seem to lean towards another WAR copy/paste.

Just because that damage model works better within the 2min meta than PLD's current one doesn't change the fact that if they go in that direction with PLD it will objectively be homogenizing.

This reply reads as, "it can't be homogenization, because here is a way in which it could also be a positive," but like... no one is saying it won't potentially be good for PLD's dps numbers, people are complaining about the idea of WAR #3. Those are different complaints.

[MartaDemireux]

Whatever the end result is, I really hope they keep the thematic feel of having a physical phase and a magical phase.

I'd be happy enough if it ended up being similar to Phoenix/Bahamut in that sense – a single buff button that switches between buffs when used with a recast of 60s. If we're going to be consecutively using Holy Spirit during burst windows, I'd prefer if it was also one button that swapped between Atonement and HS based on FoF/Req being used (similar to Enkindle) with both having the same potency. Or, maybe give FoF:Atonement a higher potency for initial 2min buff usage window, and Req:HS having slightly lower potency to make up for the self-healing at the 1min mark.

Atonement, however, wasn't shown in the trailer while all the other weaponskills were (could just be chance, though, of course), so it might just be gone, who knows. Perhaps the burst window won't use HS at all either, and will just immediately upgrade the spell into the sword magic combo, leaving HS usage just for ranged usage and after Divine Might procs (the new enhanced instant HS proc buff).

I can see Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Royal Authority no longer giving the Sword Oath buff and instead giving Divine Might based on its animation being more holy/magical (of course they could pull another mismatch like Aeolian Edge not being the Huton refresh...). Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade could be repurposed as the Sword Oath buff. Hopefully SO is not a 1:1 copy of Surging Tempest, but I won't be surprised if it is. The odd thing is that the slide mentioned Divine Might proccing off of "comboS", which sounds like a 1234 1254 rotation. Although, maybe they just meant ST and AOE by the use of plural "combos" and PLD will be reduced to a single 1234 where HS, the 4, deals enough damage to make up for not having a buff to maintain. Two weeks to go...

[baklava151]

They removed the DoT but left Goring Blade.
What I hope this means: That Goring Blade will be what triggers Divine Might, creating an MP Spend Combo.
Thereby going 1-2-Goring Blade-Holy Spirit, with PLD then alternating between this combo and the MP Gain Combo with 1-2-Royal Authority-Atonement.

Pretty sure we were tossing around a similar idea for DRK with adding an alternate combo finisher that restores MP instead of Syphon Strike, so that'd be a bit of a monkey's paw if it did end up in the game but on a different job (I wouldn't complain though)

[HyperiusUltima]

people are complaining about the idea of WAR #3. Those are different complaints.

It's not going to be WAR #3. Both DRK and WAR run the same thing - They rely upon a gauge for their damaging abilities Fell Cleave and Bloodspiller(Shadow for DRK as well). PLD is different in that it relies upon a gauge for defensive cooldowns and reacts differently to tankbusters. If you're worried Req is going to be just doing a big hit, then yeah - it's been that way since Shadowbringers and SE doesn't want to change it. Big Number go BRRR and such. But the design of PLD isn't changing as much as people think. I understand how my reply can be portrayed as that, but people are always first to fear whenever SE touches a job due to past problems(DRK becoming a WAR clone in ShB, SAM losing Kaiten) without looking at things objectively. No matter what you do to a job, people are going to complain about tit or tat. That's a given at this point.

I feel like people's main worry is that with DoTs removed from the job, it's going to lose all semblance of what they expect to be complexity. DoTs on PLD weren't complex however; they were straight-forward, but screwed with its rotation due to the 63s rotation that PLD is notorious for when it comes to Atonement Drift. Most complaints about PLD before this change was announced was around how Skill Speed was a definitive issue next to Holy Spirit being 2.5 the entire time while your actual GCD was lower, thus causing your DoTs to also drift should FoF drift from the Raid Buff Window. The removal of DoTs is to remove the stress that DoTs are placing on PLD's rotation, and allowing them to more effectively apply their damage without being stuck within a strict time window to add in party buffs. With the change, I'd imagine we'd be using FoF as soon as it comes off CD than preparing a GCD for the buff itself.