Dark Knight Megathread

[Zairava]

Never mind sole survivor, make abyssal drain a 2.5 gcd spell again.

As much as I would like to have Abyssal Drain back to being spammable, unless they make it some sort of replacement or upgrade to Flood of Shadow, or in a rework of DRK in itself, I don't see them bringing it back.

[Shurrikhan]

Never mind sole survivor, make abyssal drain a 2.5 gcd spell again.

A few small things:

• Abyssal Drain did not, itself, heal. If you want an Abyssal Drain that heals as it did before, it'd also cost you a third of your MP per use (combined costs of DA+AD). It also hit for barely more than Unleash, meaning it'd incur further opportunity cost relative to the Unleash-Stalwart combo.
• Abyssal Drain healed for little per target hit, and no serious content contains mobs enough to make it a noticeable source of healing per execute. If the sustain issue would extend beyond dungeoning alone, that probably isn't the right shape of a "solution" for the issue at hand.
• Returning Abyssal Drain to the GCD will cost you its present free 240n potency and 200n cure potency per minute (or, at opportunity cost of just a flat 510 potency -- a bonus of at least 210p and 600cp by 3 targets).

Now, you could craft an improved/revised spammable-GCD Abyssal Drain, but still... why necessarily have it on the GCD at all, instead of just having it, say, replace Flood as a spammable oGCD?

To be fair, the Ninja rework was for the most just making it's mudras GCD'S and buffing their potencies if I'm remembering right.

It also removed an entire combo (Shadowfang as a two-step DoT combo), replacing it with a Sonic Thrust knock-off.

As long as they make the combo OGCD's work in a way that doesn't make the already bloated opener/2m worse, I'm for it.

Sadly, it necessarily would. If the activator is to be used within the two-minute burst cycle, the only way for its second-stage oGCD (a la Salt and Darkness) not to also be used within that period is to literally run out of weave-space, which would mean the problem is already as bad as it can get and DRK would have no room for defensives over its two minute bursts.

Granted, if you wanted to rein back the burst APM and spread it over the lulls instead, the solution is pretty simple: Slap a mana cost onto Shadowbringer and Carve and Spit, increase their potency accordingly, and then increase MP generation to compensate for the extra 6k MP consumed per average minute while toning oGCD damage down also in due compensation (i.e., for the same total DPS under a meta comp). Total APM and DPS stays the same, but there are now fewer Edges bloating ones burst casts (despite keeping almost exactly the same burstiness), and more to do between burst cycles.

[Rithy255]

Reply to Zairava
I'll firstly just go over Paladin, Right now it's really not a good tank, while passage of arms (Plds wings) and DV are a advantage, keep in mind Passage is a weird cone, not a dps loss but sometimes a pain to use correctly, DV is similar to warriors shake it off, but just worse, I don't really think bringing a extra raid mitigation does enough, I'd hope they'd just make DV function essentially as shake (just press it and it works, also give yourself a barrier), rework passage so you don't have to angle it, even then It wouldn't be a massive bonus to bring into a raid but a actual upside to PLD having a consistent second raid buff. In general I want PLD to be pretty strong defensively and supportive, while obviously having the drawback of lowest damage (only by a bit considering how important DPS is even on tanks).

I don't really think current PLD has any benefit to be run it's currently too weak defensively and has poor damage, Invul normally gets less uses then all the other tanks, the upside being wings? like sure ok it "can" be good depending on the fight, I really don't count cover as a upside it's a bit of a stretch, cover's just so redundant it would make sense with old aggro management or if it mitigated damage like in storm blood (I think?) clemency already defensively taxes itself by being a big damage loss Imo, Warrior would just be a good general pick for being easier to play and having great sustain. In general I'd like them to look at Plds defensive kit in general (cover most importantly).

With Dark knight, I think "all tanks" should more of a higher skill celling in general, TBN doesn't really feel rewarding to me as it's a net neutral gain, it's more like "cool I got a proc I don't lose damage yippie" if you gained like a small amount of damage, that would generally be actually be very cool and fun to optimise because now you think more about using it in niche situations to get extra damage, obviously it can't reward too much but having a small way to optimise is really neat, I think more jobs should have ways to optimise and be rewarded for it currently the game plays it so safe with Job design.

I generally agree with a lot of your list I don't think a bit more sustain would hurt in general on drk but "sole survivor" would certainly feel good in pulls, I wouldn't want it to just press the "funny heal button" like warrior and have a easy time healing in big pulls which makes it really boring for healers, I like the idea of tanks & healers both working together to sustain yourself and mitigate properly in raids in general sustain isn't as useful but it's nice to have a bit as a tank, but DRK should keep its strong barrier focus, I also strongly agree with removing some OGCD's I like drk to be "busy" but it shouldn't be super busy, that's already gunbreakers thing. eitherway it should generally feel a bit more fast paced then war/pld in my head.

[Mekhana]

I'm pretty burnt out on their approach to job design and reworks. Needless to say, hoping on them to manage a shot in the dark every 4 years (that's a person 1/15th lifespan btw) is nuts.

I think the PVP team has done an infinitely better job in such a small window of time. I think its time to pass the baton to those guys.

[Zairava]

It also removed an entire combo (Shadowfang as a two-step DoT combo), replacing it with a Sonic Thrust knock-off.

Ah right. I didn't get nin to cap that long before the rework dropped.

Sadly, it necessarily would. If the activator is to be used within the two-minute burst cycle, the only way for its second-stage oGCD (a la Salt and Darkness) not to also be used within that period is to literally run out of weave-space, which would mean the problem is already as bad as it can get and DRK would have no room for defensives over its two minute bursts.

Granted, if you wanted to rein back the burst APM and spread it over the lulls instead, the solution is pretty simple: Slap a mana cost onto Shadowbringer and Carve and Spit, increase their potency accordingly, and then increase MP generation to compensate for the extra 6k MP consumed per average minute while toning oGCD damage down also in due compensation (i.e., for the same total DPS under a meta comp). Total APM and DPS stays the same, but there are now fewer Edges bloating ones burst casts (despite keeping almost exactly the same burstiness), and more to do between burst cycles.

I would actually be more in favor of making the burst phase more GCD heavy with enough OGCD's to keep us weaving. The biggest question for that, however, lies in how that may be accomplished.

Personally, I'm for giving Shadowbringer an mp cost and reducing it down to one charge on the same cooldown, same with Carve and Spit, but I would, yes, still like it on a 30s cooldown.I will absolutely run this into the ground, but Scourge would help this, plus giving us something to do outside of bursts with Carve and Spit. Going back to said "biggest question" though, revolved around upgrading actions, though it could be personal bias towards something like that.

As a concept, Delirium could upgrade our GCD's, and to knock out 2 birds with one stone, is a perfect method to bring back old abilities and animations. if not Delirium, that's something that Dark Arts could do on a 60 or 120s cooldown. This would also more or less how we would access abyssal drain as an upgrade to Flood of Shadow, or Dark Passenger with it's blind effect, new GCD combo, etc., without inherently making the bursts and opener obnoxious thanks to Shadowbringer and Carve and Spit having an mp cost. I would bargain to say Delirium could go back to being an mp restoration tool with these changes as well, since Edge/Flood would be used much less than they are now.

The biggest issue I see arising out of this concept, however, is where could they go from there?

[Zairava]

Snip

At least personally, I haven't had any issues actually tanking with Paladin, that's in a pretty good spot I feel, the outliers being cover being getting its (self)mitigation removed in ShB and divine Veil being a hassle to proc in an age where having the CD on demand is the way to go (as much as I like the functionality). The PoA can be used as an OGCD party or self mit but the timing is tight and in general not worth going for (outside of for yourself). The biggest issue for it for me is the damage you deal by yourself as PLD is low compared to the other tanks and it is *felt*. This is due to it being sustained damage vs. fitting in the current 2-minute burst design though. (which is why, unfortunately, it's being reworked.)

I do believe all tanks should have a higher skill ceiling (I feel like GNB is in a relatively good spot for that, actually), although I'm not sure how they would go about it. I'm hard pressed they would give us personal enmity management and considering their current rework history outside of Monk and 5.1 ninja...yeah.

[Shurrikhan]

I would actually be more in favor of making the burst phase more GCD heavy with enough OGCD's to keep us weaving.

I think that'd work perfectly fine, too. I think you'll find at least a few such mock-ups, including one of my own (and, closest to what you've mentioned with Delirium, Archwizard's) within this thread.

The biggest issue I see arising out of this concept, however, is where could they go from there?

While I don't think that concern ought to preclude changes in the upcoming expansion on the basis just that it might need yet another rehaul after (so long as the 7.x version ends up better than what we have now) nor do I think we can afford to purposely delay what fun additions we can imagine today just for additions in 8.0, 9.0, etc... I agree that it is an important question. I'll need more time to think on it, though, before I can do a decent mock-up that accounts for what could be done down the line.

Sidenote: I think an even stronger constraint that could be worth waiting for, though, is what ought to be done for tanking as an entire role -- and not just in the sense of contextual gameplay (pre-positioning bosses, coordinating mitigation CDs back and forth with one's cotank, etc.) or bloated systems like our former Enmity "management". There's tons more that each tank job could enjoyably include... if the role were so permitted.

[Oizen]

As much as I would like to have Abyssal Drain back to being spammable, unless they make it some sort of replacement or upgrade to Flood of Shadow, or in a rework of DRK in itself, I don't see them bringing it back.

Very easily could do this with potency and MP costs, but for some reason everything DRK has must cost exactly 3kmp

[Rithy255]

Snip.

I don't wanna get into PLD's issues as this is more for Dark knights but I guess I'll respond. While you can Proc your own DV now, you don't really have 100% control over it, as you have to be inside your req window, it's still pretty annoying at times and unintuitive, it's also weird how it has no effect on the pld themselves. POA is generally a party only mit too, as you snap shot it, generally you never wanna hold it, it might be good in a situation where you 1. Need to kitchen sink 2. don't have shelltron/holyshelltron up for extra mitigation but you never really should be using it as a personal for yourself, it's also a dps loss (usually) if you want to make sure it will go through on yourself, it's meant to be a weird cone snap shot ability, which I feel just needs to be reworked.

Also While PLD is a "strong sustain" tank keep in mind it's burst healing (unlike warrior) is all tied to rotation so a lot of the time you just end up wasting your sustain unlike warrior, In general I'd want a way of PLD to have more control over their big burst sustain (something like a OGCD heal, maybe targetable), but reduce reqs general healing rate to make up for that, another issue with PLD is lacking 1-2 personals, Keep in mind tanks normally have one personal CD: Thrill, Camo, Dark Mind but also have a "mini short cd" in Oblation, Equilibrium, Auora PLD lacks something like that with weird clunky upsides such as Cover? and sure 2 raid wides, but very inconsistent raid wides, don't forget tanks get all reprisal on a short 60 seconds CD, so POA is really not a great upside Imo considering the other tanks generally have something up in raid damage situations.

I'm a PLD main so I don't want to come across as "make my tank op" I generally think PLD should be the weakest DPS tank, it makes sense for the "shield tank with holy white magic" to be strong in supportive and tanking elements, obviously damage balance needs to be careful you can't have tanks too far behind.

General tank stuff:
I think tanks need a few things 1. Higher skill ceiling, tanks already have short CD's reward proper use of it. 2. More Varity in CD's Personal 30% good example would be making them all slightly more unique to each tank (Like warriors) 3. Some actual Pros and Cons, Tanks Like Gunbreaker shouldn't do great damage and be amazing defensively while tanks like PLD struggle to keep up 4. Shorten the Timer differences between invul (30 seconds apart instead of 1 minute apart), Tanks like PLD feel even more weaker considering invul uptime, obviously as PLD has the best effect it still needs to be the longest

[Zairava]

Very easily could do this with potency and MP costs, but for some reason everything DRK has must cost exactly 3kmp

That's something I don't really get either, and I don't really know what to say about it. It's that odd piece that doesn't really make sense. More could be done with MP if everything costed a bit less, but for now we're stuck with it.

I think that'd work perfectly fine, too. I think you'll find at least a few such mock-ups, including one of my own (and, closest to what you've mentioned with Delirium, Archwizard's) within this thread.


While I don't think that concern ought to preclude changes in the upcoming expansion on the basis just that it might need yet another rehaul after (so long as the 7.x version ends up better than what we have now) nor do I think we can afford to purposely delay what fun additions we can imagine today just for additions in 8.0, 9.0, etc... I agree that it is an important question. I'll need more time to think on it, though, before I can do a decent mock-up that accounts for what could be done down the line.

I've thought about this over the course of my shift last night and a few things popped into my head.

Say the action upgrade changes I had listed applied to Delirium actually happened to DRK in 7.X. With Blood Weapon, you should be able to get 2 edge/flood in a single 2-minute burst window. Though, this obviously means you will lose out on the second edge if you don't pop DA. Which is something we suffer from now even, so nothing new there.

So... if these did indeed happen in 7.X, what would possibly come after, especially the capstone? I have an idea, and it involves Blood Weapon.

• the capstone would be that activating Blood Weapon upgrades Carve and Spit into a new, stronger ability for a single use during Blood Weapon.
• Before obtaining this capstone, Blood Weapon just boosts Carve and Spit's potency to 600 at level 72 or something.
• Scourge would be obtained at 80 (blah blah, LS blah blah) and would get a potency upgrade of 10 or 20 at lvl 94 or 96
• Sole Survivor, if brought back, would be reduced from a 120s cd to a 90s cd at 92 or 98

-I have an image for a possible opener with all this, but I couldn't figure out how to actually make it show up, so it's just in reserves until I find out how)
What happens after that?. It's a bit preemptive to say it now...however, at that capstone. I've gotten as far as the upgraded Carve and Spit proccing something called Bathed in Blood, however I'm not entirely sure what it would do since I haven't got that far. Anything else is up for debate as it won't be until far later, really. We don't even have the 7.X variant yet.

Sidenote: I think an even stronger constraint that could be worth waiting for, though, is what ought to be done for tanking as an entire role -- and not just in the sense of contextual gameplay (pre-positioning bosses, coordinating mitigation CDs back and forth with one's cotank, etc.) or bloated systems like our former Enmity "management". There's tons more that each tank job could enjoyably include... if the role were so permitted.

This would require some thought required out of my not tired brain...I'll need to get back on that later. I had some ideas brewing last night that would only require every tank jobs current kit, but I need to finalize them.