What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

Sorry for taking a while to reply! I've been enjoying this discussion with you a lot, but Real Life Things happened, as they are wont to do.

I'm relieved to hear someone else actually feels similar

Agreed with all of this re: the themes of isolation. It's a blind spot in tons of media, not just FFXIV, of course. I will say that prior to Endwalker, the game - well, primarily Shadowbringers - appealed to me in what felt like its approach being... hm, how to put this: even if they were working within this inherently questionable framing, the feeling of putting the "call for action" within it on the 'fortunate', as opposed to the vulnerable and isolated. With the acknowledgment and understanding that our heroic 'power of friendship' stance is something at least partially allowed to us due to circumstantial luck, that increases our responsibility to empathize with and reach out to those who are less - dare I say, in your vein, lol - privileged.

That's not to say there aren't times accords can't be reached and it still comes down to (regrettable) conflict - like with Emet-Selch - or that there aren't times when there isn't sufficient shared will between both parties to find a different, less violent path - see several Garleans, or Yotsuyu - but we still need to attempt it and err on the side of compassion, I think. And in those cases where things don't work out, the responsibility still falls on us to examine the situation for what it was and as honestly as possible, rather than generalizing one way or the other in terms of 'well, if they remain opposed to me, it's because of some fundamental evil' or 'they're all agency-less poor victims.' When it comes to callous explorations of 'isolation will ruin you,' what really drives me insane is the suggestion that therefore vulnerable, hurting people just be expected to pull themselves up by their emotional bootstraps and if they failed to acquire the power of friendship, it's due to lack of virtue or effort on their part (hence, implicitly, justification why those who are proven to 'put in the effort' have the right to judge, look down on, or abandon them.) FFXIV had enough instances of "hey, WoL, it's actually your job to reach a hand out to these people to help them" that I could mostly roll with it compared to a lot of other stories.

EW did a great job throwing all of the prior relative positivity I felt about how FFXIV handled things out the window, though, of course, lmao. (Well, with some exceptions. I did appreciate the nuance of the Garlemald zone.)

but I also liked how they didn't handle him with kid gloves, and the out-and-out disdain and distrust the Scions had for him all the while giving him that chance,

A lot of what Emet has done can be rightfully called out to be vile and heinous, and masses of people have every right to despise him for it. I think that doesn't change that our final confrontation in Amaurot, as the Warrior of Light and de facto representative of the Sundered, came down more to completely valid need versus completely valid need than good versus evil, and it's important to see that clearly (as the "great and terrible thing" it is) instead of huffing on I'm The Hero Putting Down The Evil Fascist Fighting For An Unworthy Cause. Shadowbringers is fairly explicit and textured about urging us to suppress that self-righteous temptation, which is a significant part of the reason I loved it.

That being said, I ALSO completely and enthusiastically agree about it being super important that in-universe characters be allowed to hate and dislike Emet! I think that's a really crucial part of what made his portrayal in Shadowbringers work. I love the Ancients and the Ascians, and I was like "good, yes, excellent" when Tiamat and Estinien were basically bonding over "god, EFF those guys" even in a post-Amaurot reveal world based on the atrocities they had inflicted upon dragonkind--because they should. Tiamat loathing them all regardless of their sob story, Estinien not caring about their sob story, is the only thing that makes sense. My favorite aspect of G'raha Tia as a character is honestly how much he loathes Emet-Selch, and every time he expresses or alludes to that loathing, I basically feel only glee about it.

I think one of the fundamental issues in the writing of Endwalker is the disconnect between the purported 'main cast' (the Scions) and the actual core of the plot (the Ancients), but if they had gone out of their way to show the Scions all, in their weird blobby unified EW-way, falling over themselves to cry about Emet-Selch and sympathize with him, I think I would have hated it just about as much as you. Their Ultima Thule commentary was vague and generalized enough and felt more focused on general 'observations' about him and the Ancients to sort of dodge a breaking point in that regard, but I understand if it felt like too much for someone else.

Really, the best way I guess I can put it is, while I can appreciate...

I think we sort of process a 'difference in scale' in terms of Atrocities Committed in different ways that lead to the different evaluations here - though they're probably both valid?

From the perspective of mostly analyzing the psychology/mindset of the person taking the action, the difference in scale - at least for me - isn't really that big a consideration, and mostly falls under "well, it's just circumstantial and mostly luck that Ardbert only looked to mass murder one world as opposed to seven. Only one was necessary for him. And once you make up your mind that ten, a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, innocent people are expendable for the sake of your cause or your loved ones, that abusing one vulnerable population, five vulnerable populations, for the greater good is an acceptable cost, increasing the scale if needed is nothing more than feather-push away."

From the perspective of the victims as people, though, of course it makes every difference in the world, and that's a factor that shouldn't be ignored either. Of course when you step away from the mindset of 'what's going on in the brains and intentions of these people who get twisted from exceptionally good/heroic to I Am Ruthless Destroyer Of Worlds?' (and that isn't a fair thing to ask their victims to consider) and more an objective look at history, Ardbert and Crew torturing the Ixal, Gnath, Kobolds, and Amaljaa at minimum - that we know of - is an atrocity that claimed far fewer victims than Emet-Selch doing his thing across multiple nations and worlds over 12,000 years. And this will reflect on, perhaps, the amount of 'work' they're expected to do if they want any measure of forgiveness or understanding.

I've seen enough rants about how people daring to enjoy Emet as a character conflates with a sympathetic view towards fascism myself, so I can understand that! I've also been surprised by the apparent dismissal fans have had towards the Ancients and will never not defend them, because while I can see how Emet can be a divisive figure for some

Oh, fully agreed. I love Emet-Selch, but I'm honestly mostly "shrug, sure, that's legit" in regards to if people like or dislike him as an individual. There are totally valid reasons to dislike him, or any other character. He's pretty despicable in a lot of ways and has an abrasive personality besides. (Not everyone goes for tsunderes?) However, I tend to draw a much harder line with the Ancients, who were good people (and most importantly, people) who did not deserve or earn by any measure what happened to them. They had every single bit as much a "right" to live as we did, and therefore you have the entire tragedy and thrust of Shadowbringers. And it's sort of sad to see how easy it is sometimes for people, still, to go "I don't like X individual or figure of authority within this race or culture, who is trying to advance their interests and well-being as a whole, therefore I must look for ways to denigrate the entire race or culture! Man, Othering for our own benefit is so convenient and definitely has no correlation whatsoever to certain trains of thought that haved moved history in disturbing ways throughout."

I'm loving Pandaemonium, too, though, and think it was pretty wonderful in regards to its approach to the Ancients - and am crossing fingers with you that they don't drop the ball on it as it continues.

[Avenheit]

only thing i disliked was zodiarks voice - whiney ol fandan did not fit zodis body

[Lunaxia]

Haha, no apology necessary (though I am very apologetic for one this late - I didn't think to check after a few days and then life also proceeded to Do Things on my end... don't feel obligated to reply though, I just hate leaving discussions hanging in mid-air and have been enjoying this myself!)

Agreed with all of this re: the themes of isolation. It's a blind spot in tons of media, not just FFXIV, of course. I will say that prior to Endwalker, the game - well, primarily Shadowbringers - appealed to me in what felt like its approach being... hm, how to put this...

100%, and it did soften me a little towards the Scions where I might otherwise have found them grating - that sort of acknowledgement of the relentless optimism of their cause and ability to effect change being a result of life being extraordinarily kind to them in a way not many others are afforded. That "we know you can't, so we will for you" stance helped shift them away from potentially obnoxious territory to being somewhat endearing - and story-wise, it also served to make those moments when that "privilege" (it's such a handy word!) became tremulous and matters threatened to fall beyond their control all the more effective; seeing them grapple with our potentially turning into a sin eater and coming up against a situation where for once there aren't any answers was not only an integral part of what made the Amaurot portion so good, in my eyes, but a necessity for it to really work. We needed to have that very real vulnerability underscored to put us on Emet's level and truly understand his headspace and where he's coming from, and to put to rest the myth of pure good and evil once and for all to help the writing (and the characters) evolve and mature from that.

...and then Endwalker (I feel as if most of my posts in this thread could be summed up by those three words alone) responded to the resounding success inspired by such good writing by soundly throwing the entire concept in the bin, cladding its heroes in impenetrable plot armor and protecting them from actually having to experience the message it spent the entire previous expansion trying to convey (???)

But exasperation aside, to circle back, I do fully appreciate the villains at least get a more human examination in that respect, even if the conclusion isn't always what I'd necessarily agree with. And Garlemald really was great - though as effective as it was, I can never help but imagine the chapter with Quintus fleshed out into a full arc over the expansion and witnessing all the drama of the various warring factions prior to the Empire's fall, given what we know of their ruling class, and what could have been makes me ache, honestly. It almost makes you want to pick up a pen yourself.

A lot of what Emet has done can be rightfully called out to be vile and heinous...

For sure! That was important to me too, and I was glad the journal entry for Shadowbringers especially really drove that home... particularly when that last exchange with Emet was followed up by Alphinaud immediately running up to us and happily proclaiming his death in a way some might consider to be a bit tactless, I was a little concerned about their intention there, but it turned out well enough. Though I really wanted the effects and consequences of that fight to be examined more in the following patches, I was relieved at least that alongside the Scions' celebration, we did have those feelings of ours - and the weight of what we actually did - touched upon.

And yes! Conflict between characters is so necessary for any good story (as I think I harped on about many, many pages ago), and after the Scions always having been a tad stale and one-dimensional in that regard, ShB really brought some interesting dynamics to the table - Thancred and Y'shtola, Thancred's issues regarding Minfilia and Ryne, Emet and... just about everyone, including the Exarch - to the point that I genuinely enjoyed having them around for once. Those sorts of disagreements, personality clashes and occasional outright hostilities give the characters humanity and some much needed colour that I know the writers are capable of, when they stop playing it safe - and the Scions above all else still really need that if they insist on making them work long term.

With the Scions and Emet, though, the disconnect between how they reacted to him before and after his death was actually a problem that preceded EW for me - it always felt a little inconsistent and pandering to what they felt the players wanted, and I still believe that had Emet not been such a mesmerising fan favourite, the writers would have dealt with him differently in terms of how he's perceived and treated within the story.

I think we sort of process a 'difference in scale' in terms of Atrocities Committed in different ways...

I think that's fairly accurate, and I do get your take on it - examining the fundamental point of "this person is willing to sacrifice innocent lives for their own desired outcome", and the morality and what it means for someone to choose to cross that line is a completely valid thing to do, and not something I actually disagree with. I suppose for the sake of the story, I'm buying into the game's basic premise that "good people do (very) bad things when pushed", and instead look to the circumstances that surround that decision and the "rap sheet", as it were, before making my personal judgement when the game asks me to relate or sympathise with a character. To some degree I have to take that perspective, since the game's inconsistency with how it handles the actions of certain characters depending on who the writers want us to favour or promote as a new ally would make it difficult for me to embrace the story otherwise. Gaius' character, for instance, frequently bothers me - I don't hate him, and I didn't mind him quite so much during the 4.x MSQ, but I ended up spending the majority of the Weapons story "don't know, don't care"-ing through the cutscenes because I neither agreed with nor cared for the sudden, heavy-handed softening of his image that it seemed to me they felt necessitated the introduction of a less than believable lizard family from nowhere to make it work. As with Emet, I don't object to redemption arcs (or even merely "I'm no longer trying to kill you" arcs), or believe previously villainous characters should be permanently blacklisted, but they need to make it believable and leave some room for players to make up their own minds rather than foisting them into artificial situations to dredge up some good will for them.

Oh, fully agreed. I love Emet-Selch, but I'm honestly mostly...

It's certainly a strange position to take, but I give some of the blame to Endwalker for the horribly clumsy and offhand way it tries to justify that thought process with that level 87 cutscene in Amaurot. I'm still a little perplexed that was how they handled the great summoning, and the war between Hydaelyn and Zodiark that supposedly followed. It was so bizarrely rushed for what in any other circumstances would and should have been one of the most pivotal and climactic reveals/ moments of the entire series, and if anything I would have even been tempted to give it a cinematic of some sort (I guess perhaps it wouldn't have been a very good look for Venat, though.) So many strange decisions surrounding this expansion.

I am glad, though (and again confused) that they seem to be doubling back on themselves and putting paid to the argument the Ancients deserved their fate for their inability to handle hardship, with an Ancient-centered storyline surrounding grief, deception, abuse/ manipulation and coping with unbearable emotional turmoil. It's getting increasingly harder to find a leg for Venat's reasoning to stand on... and lately I have actually noticed across several FFXIV communities a small but distinct change in the tide regarding the unanimous claim the story was getting previously. It looks like the myriad inconsistencies in the story are starting to dawn on some people.

[KageTokage]

The biggest thing I wanted from Endwalker was to see the Sundering actually happen after we learned the reality of all that it did to the world and its inhabitants in the short term.

Having to refer to a collab with an entirely different game just to get a better picture of why Emet-Selch chose to refer to his former brethren as "malformed creatures" was awkward, and I can't help but feel like it was done partly to deflect from the reality of the situation to make Venat look better.

[Lunaxia]

The biggest thing I wanted from Endwalker was to see the Sundering actually happen after we learned the reality of all that it did to the world and its inhabitants in the short term.

Having to refer to a collab with an entirely different game just to get a better picture of why Emet-Selch chose to refer to his former brethren as "malformed creatures" was awkward, and I can't help but feel like it was done partly to deflect from the reality of the situation to make Venat look better.

There should have been so much more from the Ancients in general, from the proposal of Zodiark and his summoning, to the subsequent disagreements and the Sundering. They were chronically short-changed, and you can see in that in just how many people, both those happy and those disappointed with EW, are still hungry for more content surrounding them. For all the build-up Amaurot and the events thereafter inspired, it was a very inadequate conclusion.

I'm guessing they thought that it was enough to see the Ascians persevering even in the face of the humans undeniably having come so far as to no longer be justified in what they were perpetuating, and believed it wasn't a necessity to touch upon. But there's no denying that seeing the initial consequences of Venat's decision would have painted them in a much more sympathetic light and her in a much darker one, and they were already jumping through hoops to avoid that as it was.

[Brinne]

Lunaxia, thanks so much for your reply! I'll answer more in-depth to the degree I'm capable when my brain isn't a pile of slush, but suffice it to say that I mostly agree with you on things at this point, lol.

The biggest thing I wanted from Endwalker was to see the Sundering actually happen after we learned the reality of all that it did to the world and its inhabitants in the short term.

Having to refer to a collab with an entirely different game just to get a better picture of why Emet-Selch chose to refer to his former brethren as "malformed creatures" was awkward, and I can't help but feel like it was done partly to deflect from the reality of the situation to make Venat look better.

This is exactly what it was. I continue to Wonder at the complete reversal from Shadowbringers's appeal, through Amaurot, to understanding the Ancients as arguably more human and "like us" in terms of the playerbase than the Sundered and aiming for pathos on that level, to Endwalker's dogged insistence that actually, they're "scary" and culturally alien/Other, therefore inhuman and exist for us to reinforce our own assurance that our version of "humanity" is superior and deserves to exist more. "The Sundered are better!" is not, in fact, any better than "the Ancients are better!" in terms of trying to make the concept of mass annihilation of a population more palatable or okay.

One of the things I took from Shadowbringers that I found deeply touching and compelling is that the question/premise of "who is more worthy to live" is inherently a bad one that can only lead to bad things, and that from our perspective of players/representative of the Sundered, as soon as we fall into that pattern of thinking, we lose. That's why the Scions' counterarguments to Emet-Selch weren't even counterarguments on that basis - they basically conceded to him in that framework, but asserted they wanted to live anyway, and had a right to live. The only correct answer to that is "that is and always will be the wrong question," not "it's us, baby! Because Suffering and Dynamis!"

Not that, once again, I think the writers consciously set out to declare "yeah the point of our story is asserting Emet-Selch's rationale was correct, he just got Which Race Was Superior incorrect," per se - somewhere in the crossroads of "make Hydaelyn lovable" and "make the Players feel good" and Yoshida's kinda-weird-from-the-onset take on what Shadowbringers added to the Ascian lore, it just wound up here. I think one of the easiest traps to fall into as a writer that can warp your project is "please like this major/pet character, please please please like them" and if I hadn't been so invested in the story emotionally, it would have been mostly fascinating to see the sheer degree Endwalker fell victim to this, to the point of warping the foundational lore and the moral fabric of most of the cast, but.

[Lunaxia]

This is exactly what it was. I continue to Wonder at the complete reversal from Shadowbringers's appeal...

The truth is, Shadowbringers was brilliant, but absolutely terrible for the series overall. The popularity it brought and their desire to hold onto it has turned FFXIV away from everything that made it enjoyable in the first place, and it feels as if they now fear doing anything different that departs from what they consider the "safe" formula in case it goes away. The result is that they took what they mistakenly thought worked from ShB, discarded what actually made it so successful, and streamlined and oversimplified most of the game, right down to the plot and characterisation, to avoid anything even remotely controversial that might turn off players and damage said popularity, before padding the empty space with ooh-ahh visuals and inspirational fluff. What we're left with is something that seems bright and flashy on the surface but lacks any real substance, and a paper-thin story that starts to fall apart under the slightest inspection because of their desperate adherence to what they think fans want to hear. The nuances and complexities of ShB never really stood a chance of coming through, because there's too much potential for division and disagreement - the safest route was reverting back to goodly Mother Hydaelyn, blasting Garlemald off the map, and vaguely handwaving away the Ancients (because it never would have worked anyway, so it's fine!) to remove all of that uncomfortable, potential discourse and make it a feel-good story where good and hope (and their review score) wins the day.

[Lustre]

Necro bump for my favourite thread, probably my last on these forums considering my sub runs out soon and I don't really see myself renewing it. Such a shame EW turned out the way it did. From a lacklustre and rushed 6.0, to the plot device laden 6.1 and 6.2 with 0 real stakes and all of the usual power of friendship tropes. If all that awaits us in the future is more scions (yawn) more plot devices (yawn), and more lazy writing in a setting with no teeth then there really is no point. I wish I could stay around but I don't really see things improving. I had hoped the patch content would improve but doesn't seem to be the case. Cc was a flop, criterion was a flop. MSQ is forgettable and island sanctuary was a 1 week right click grind. And that's to say nothing of the myriad of problems relating to gameplay and job design. Have fun waiting for the thin scraps of leftovers SE serve up for us all. Peace out, take care!

[Conadrium]

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

1) I realize this is a very old post but it’s on the front page so I’m going to reply to it.

2) Zodiark has NEVER been evil. He saved the world. The only reason we exist is because his power has been protecting this planet for thousands of years. Hydaelyn was summoned to stop him because the PEOPLE were going to sacrifice the life on the planet to bring their people back. There’s a whole moralistic argument there that can be had about a small minority making decisions for the masses that literally means their demise. Also Zodiark was barely over half strength when we fought him. 6? of the reflections still remain.

3) Ever heard of a paradox? Venat couldn’t stop it. Things had to go exactly as they did, or you wouldn’t have gone to the past and she would know nothing. She suffered for millennia to give us a chance. To fight or flee as our own resolve determined.

[Striker44]

Necro bump for my favourite thread, probably my last on these forums considering my sub runs out soon and I don't really see myself renewing it. Such a shame EW turned out the way it did. From a lacklustre and rushed 6.0, to the plot device laden 6.1 and 6.2 with 0 real stakes and all of the usual power of friendship tropes. If all that awaits us in the future is more scions (yawn) more plot devices (yawn), and more lazy writing in a setting with no teeth then there really is no point. I wish I could stay around but I don't really see things improving. I had hoped the patch content would improve but doesn't seem to be the case. Cc was a flop, criterion was a flop. MSQ is forgettable and island sanctuary was a 1 week right click grind. And that's to say nothing of the myriad of problems relating to gameplay and job design. Have fun waiting for the thin scraps of leftovers SE serve up for us all. Peace out, take care!

Well, as someone who's absolutely loving FFXIV right now, from both the gameplay and story perspectives, I'm seeing a feast in front of me It's rather amusing, though, when people get so sad they feel some deep-seated need to "bump" a thread because they can't stand other people being happy and enjoying something. I've been having a lot of fun exploring the different paths in the variant dungeon, haven't even touched criterion yet (or IS for that matter), because there's just so much to do. It sounds like a good idea you're heading out at least for the time being. Sometimes we get too invested in something and then it inevitably goes south when things don't go exactly the way we want. Stepping back (or away) becomes a healthy decision in times like that.