What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KageTokage]

The biggest thing I wanted from Endwalker was to see the Sundering actually happen after we learned the reality of all that it did to the world and its inhabitants in the short term.

Having to refer to a collab with an entirely different game just to get a better picture of why Emet-Selch chose to refer to his former brethren as "malformed creatures" was awkward, and I can't help but feel like it was done partly to deflect from the reality of the situation to make Venat look better.

[Lunaxia]

The biggest thing I wanted from Endwalker was to see the Sundering actually happen after we learned the reality of all that it did to the world and its inhabitants in the short term.

Having to refer to a collab with an entirely different game just to get a better picture of why Emet-Selch chose to refer to his former brethren as "malformed creatures" was awkward, and I can't help but feel like it was done partly to deflect from the reality of the situation to make Venat look better.

There should have been so much more from the Ancients in general, from the proposal of Zodiark and his summoning, to the subsequent disagreements and the Sundering. They were chronically short-changed, and you can see in that in just how many people, both those happy and those disappointed with EW, are still hungry for more content surrounding them. For all the build-up Amaurot and the events thereafter inspired, it was a very inadequate conclusion.

I'm guessing they thought that it was enough to see the Ascians persevering even in the face of the humans undeniably having come so far as to no longer be justified in what they were perpetuating, and believed it wasn't a necessity to touch upon. But there's no denying that seeing the initial consequences of Venat's decision would have painted them in a much more sympathetic light and her in a much darker one, and they were already jumping through hoops to avoid that as it was.

[Brinne]

Lunaxia, thanks so much for your reply! I'll answer more in-depth to the degree I'm capable when my brain isn't a pile of slush, but suffice it to say that I mostly agree with you on things at this point, lol.

The biggest thing I wanted from Endwalker was to see the Sundering actually happen after we learned the reality of all that it did to the world and its inhabitants in the short term.

Having to refer to a collab with an entirely different game just to get a better picture of why Emet-Selch chose to refer to his former brethren as "malformed creatures" was awkward, and I can't help but feel like it was done partly to deflect from the reality of the situation to make Venat look better.

This is exactly what it was. I continue to Wonder at the complete reversal from Shadowbringers's appeal, through Amaurot, to understanding the Ancients as arguably more human and "like us" in terms of the playerbase than the Sundered and aiming for pathos on that level, to Endwalker's dogged insistence that actually, they're "scary" and culturally alien/Other, therefore inhuman and exist for us to reinforce our own assurance that our version of "humanity" is superior and deserves to exist more. "The Sundered are better!" is not, in fact, any better than "the Ancients are better!" in terms of trying to make the concept of mass annihilation of a population more palatable or okay.

One of the things I took from Shadowbringers that I found deeply touching and compelling is that the question/premise of "who is more worthy to live" is inherently a bad one that can only lead to bad things, and that from our perspective of players/representative of the Sundered, as soon as we fall into that pattern of thinking, we lose. That's why the Scions' counterarguments to Emet-Selch weren't even counterarguments on that basis - they basically conceded to him in that framework, but asserted they wanted to live anyway, and had a right to live. The only correct answer to that is "that is and always will be the wrong question," not "it's us, baby! Because Suffering and Dynamis!"

Not that, once again, I think the writers consciously set out to declare "yeah the point of our story is asserting Emet-Selch's rationale was correct, he just got Which Race Was Superior incorrect," per se - somewhere in the crossroads of "make Hydaelyn lovable" and "make the Players feel good" and Yoshida's kinda-weird-from-the-onset take on what Shadowbringers added to the Ascian lore, it just wound up here. I think one of the easiest traps to fall into as a writer that can warp your project is "please like this major/pet character, please please please like them" and if I hadn't been so invested in the story emotionally, it would have been mostly fascinating to see the sheer degree Endwalker fell victim to this, to the point of warping the foundational lore and the moral fabric of most of the cast, but.

[Lunaxia]

This is exactly what it was. I continue to Wonder at the complete reversal from Shadowbringers's appeal...

The truth is, Shadowbringers was brilliant, but absolutely terrible for the series overall. The popularity it brought and their desire to hold onto it has turned FFXIV away from everything that made it enjoyable in the first place, and it feels as if they now fear doing anything different that departs from what they consider the "safe" formula in case it goes away. The result is that they took what they mistakenly thought worked from ShB, discarded what actually made it so successful, and streamlined and oversimplified most of the game, right down to the plot and characterisation, to avoid anything even remotely controversial that might turn off players and damage said popularity, before padding the empty space with ooh-ahh visuals and inspirational fluff. What we're left with is something that seems bright and flashy on the surface but lacks any real substance, and a paper-thin story that starts to fall apart under the slightest inspection because of their desperate adherence to what they think fans want to hear. The nuances and complexities of ShB never really stood a chance of coming through, because there's too much potential for division and disagreement - the safest route was reverting back to goodly Mother Hydaelyn, blasting Garlemald off the map, and vaguely handwaving away the Ancients (because it never would have worked anyway, so it's fine!) to remove all of that uncomfortable, potential discourse and make it a feel-good story where good and hope (and their review score) wins the day.

[Atelier-Bagur]

The truth is, Shadowbringers was brilliant, but absolutely terrible for the series overall. The popularity it brought and their desire to hold onto it has turned FFXIV away from everything that made it enjoyable in the first place, and it feels as if they now fear doing anything different that departs from what they consider the "safe" formula in case it goes away. The result is that they took what they mistakenly thought worked from ShB, discarded what actually made it so successful, and streamlined and oversimplified most of the game, right down to the plot and characterisation, to avoid anything even remotely controversial that might turn off players and damage said popularity, before padding the empty space with ooh-ahh visuals and inspirational fluff. What we're left with is something that seems bright and flashy on the surface but lacks any real substance, and a paper-thin story that starts to fall apart under the slightest inspection because of their desperate adherence to what they think fans want to hear. The nuances and complexities of ShB never really stood a chance of coming through, because there's too much potential for division and disagreement - the safest route was reverting back to goodly Mother Hydaelyn, blasting Garlemald off the map, and vaguely handwaving away the Ancients (because it never would have worked anyway, so it's fine!) to remove all of that uncomfortable, potential discourse and make it a feel-good story where good and hope (and their review score) wins the day.

Shadowbringers was stupid with the doing away whatever build up they were going for in post-SB. I enjoy it for what it is and its a good story expansion but I'll be forever salty how practically pointless and misleading it was for us to go to the First rather than staying in the Source and having a full Garlemald expansion. Seriously the teaser cinematic puporsefully made you think the story was gonna somehow be about time traveling into the future of Eorzea or something, perhaps dealing with the Black Rose incident and preventing the Calamity that occured during the original timeline (the one G'raha came from after he left the Crystal Tower). It would've been amazing! But nope, we had to have your typical isekai adventures that was massively overhyped by the general audience about "omg you're gonna cry so much, story so gooodz!!xd"

I'm being childish I know, but Shadowbringers was a massive dissapointment for me.

[redheadturk]

The truth is, Shadowbringers was brilliant, but absolutely terrible for the series overall. The popularity it brought and their desire to hold onto it has turned FFXIV away from everything that made it enjoyable in the first place, and it feels as if they now fear doing anything different that departs from what they consider the "safe" formula in case it goes away. The result is that they took what they mistakenly thought worked from ShB, discarded what actually made it so successful, and streamlined and oversimplified most of the game, right down to the plot and characterisation, to avoid anything even remotely controversial that might turn off players and damage said popularity, before padding the empty space with ooh-ahh visuals and inspirational fluff. What we're left with is something that seems bright and flashy on the surface but lacks any real substance, and a paper-thin story that starts to fall apart under the slightest inspection because of their desperate adherence to what they think fans want to hear. The nuances and complexities of ShB never really stood a chance of coming through, because there's too much potential for division and disagreement - the safest route was reverting back to goodly Mother Hydaelyn, blasting Garlemald off the map, and vaguely handwaving away the Ancients (because it never would have worked anyway, so it's fine!) to remove all of that uncomfortable, potential discourse and make it a feel-good story where good and hope (and their review score) wins the day.

All of this. The lightning in a bottle that was shb happened not because Goodly Mother, but because the Ancients were so captivating and fascinating as a culture. It had shadows and nuance, and players are intelligent enough to want more of that.