What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Oizen]

I mean... they killed half the population to create Zodiark, then the half of the half to nurture life again, and then they were gonna kill EVERYONE new to bring back the old.

I recall it being voluntary though. No one is denying the situation was shitty, but seems like only hydaelyn went against the grain here.

Oh no, even if willingly, they were sacrificed, thus got killed. Not saying it wasn't noble or anything but they most def got killed lol.

Yeah but they had a choice here, Venat is the only one who forced her will onto her own people, killing them anyway, or sealing them inside the moon as part of Zodiark.
Then she went on to make herself god of a new, weaker race.

I don't think anyone here is defending the actions of the Zodiark cult, or acting like Zodiark was the good guy. It was a desperate ploy done by people to try to save their planet.
You can't say the same when it comes to Hydaelyn, and while the story tries desperately to paint her as the hero, she really more looks like someone who sat on all the information for herself, went against her people who didnt know what she did, made herself a god, and doomed them all.

Again, the takeaway here is that Endwalker's story is rushed and of rather poor quality, you can take the events how the developer's intended, but I think the fact this discourse has gone on for this long now shows they objectively did a pretty bad job.

[Lauront]

It depends on what you're referring to as the Zodiark cult. If you mean the Ascians? I think their motivations are understandable, but they are straightforwardly detrimental and genocidal to the sundered, and I will freely grant that.

If, however, we mean the Convocation (and the ancients more generally) before the Sundering, I would consider them unqualifiedly heroic in that they forged a solution that would protect their star and revive it, albeit at a great cost that they had been left without any other option but to pursue, because information was withheld from them. Insofar as Zodiark lacks much of a personality of his own, and was controlled by Themis, who sacrificed himself to become Zodiark's heart, and who later emerged to help reconcile the dispute that emerged between his people over the state of their brethren trapped in Zodiark, I'd consider his controller benevolent. The primal simply acts on instructions and delivered what was promised - halting of the apocalypse and revival of the star, plus shielding it for 12k+ years even sundered. We saw that even without his controller, his quasi-consciousness rebelled against the notion of being used to harm the star when Fandaniel took control over him, so for me the primal is definitely one of the more benign ones we've seen.

But yes, I'll agree that a less desperate solution could've been devised if they had been given more information and sooner (I'm aware of the excuses the plot gives for this not being the case - I don't think they're adequate... doesn't really matter as they're a writing choice anyway.) Then you layer on the narrative treatment of it all, including the lack of any direct critical commentary to her and the way the codex keeps sugarcoating her actions and/or centering on them, and yeah, it's not great. Makes the Omega sidequest come across a decent enough addition but token in nature.

[TheBlueRogue]

Enjoyed the story up until we get to Elpis then it just falls apart for me. Knowing everything happened because of some depressed ancient and his cringe creation ruined the story for me honestly.

[Theodric]

As an aside, I'll be vague to avoid spoilers since it touches upon another game entirely but having played FFXVI...

I'll say that I enjoyed it for the most part. That being said, it's hard not to see many of the same story issues that afflict FFXIV as well. Everyone and everything ends up revolving around Clive in the same way as how everything in FFXIV ends up revolving around the Warrior of Light.

This is very different to the other Final Fantasy games. My favourite, FFXII, has a character - Drace - who the protagonists never meet directly. She's shown in cut-scenes that take place in the heart of the Empire and advances the story without coming to blows with the protagonists or even speaking with them.

In my second favourite game in the franchise, FFIX, almost all of the characters you play as have their own agendas outside of Zidane. For much of the game, Steiner is wrestling with his loyalty to his Queen and his sworn duties. Freya is looking for her lost love and so on and forth.

It's a real shame. Both FFXIV and FFXVI have interesting characters and factions, but they're stifled by being written not as part of an actual world but just set pieces to feed the player's ego.

It's a stark difference to the likes of Final Fantasy Tactics and The Witcher 3 where you have all these varied characters and factions with their own goals and agendas separate to the protagonist(s).

I guess that's the root of most of my issues with this game's story and if I'm honest I don't see the style changing or the world building maturing.

Twice now CBU3 have promised Ivalice style depth and intrigue but not quite managed to provide it. It rapidly falls away after a certain point, usually when it'd become inconvenient for the protagonists.

[SieyaM]

As an aside, I'll be vague to avoid spoilers since it touches upon another game entirely but having played FFXVI...

I'll say that I enjoyed it for the most part. That being said, it's hard not to see many of the same story issues that afflict FFXIV as well. Everyone and everything ends up revolving around Clive in the same way as how everything in FFXIV ends up revolving around the Warrior of Light.

This is very different to the other Final Fantasy games. My favourite, FFXII, has a character - Drace - who the protagonists never meet directly. She's shown in cut-scenes that take place in the heart of the Empire and advances the story without coming to blows with the protagonists or even speaking with them.

In my second favourite game in the franchise, FFIX, almost all of the characters you play as have their own agendas outside of Zidane. For much of the game, Steiner is wrestling with his loyalty to his Queen and his sworn duties. Freya is looking for her lost love and so on and forth.

It's a real shame. Both FFXIV and FFXVI have interesting characters and factions, but they're stifled by being written not as part of an actual world but just set pieces to feed the player's ego.

It's a stark difference to the likes of Final Fantasy Tactics and The Witcher 3 where you have all these varied characters and factions with their own goals and agendas separate to the protagonist(s).

I guess that's the root of most of my issues with this game's story and if I'm honest I don't see the style changing or the world building maturing.

Twice now CBU3 have promised Ivalice style depth and intrigue but not quite managed to provide it. It rapidly falls away after a certain point, usually when it'd become inconvenient for the protagonists.

Not to be caught agreeing with you too much, but that seems to be a problem with a lot of games lately. Characters have no motivations or goals beyond plot relevance. No one seems to be a whole person they seems to exist solely to advance the plot, they have no dreams or ambitions beyond what the plot demands and have no existence when the plot ends. The scions seem to have no real purpose now that the arc has ended, which is why it's so easy to pick them up at a moments notice when the story demands. They are ostensibly pursuing thier own interests now, but they just kind of fell into these things as they linger on from our previous plot points, it's nothing they have ever had an ambition or desire to do before we met them.

[Theodric]

Not to be caught agreeing with you too much, but that seems to be a problem with a lot of games lately. Characters have no motivations or goals beyond plot relevance. No one seems to be a whole person they seems to exist solely to advance the plot, they have no dreams or ambitions beyond what the plot demands and have no existence when the plot ends. The scions seem to have no real purpose now that the arc has ended, which is why it's so easy to pick them up at a moments notice when the story demands. They are ostensibly pursuing thier own interests now, but they just kind of fell into these things as they linger on from our previous plot points, it's nothing they have ever had an ambition or desire to do before we met them.

What happens if people agree with me 'too much'?

As far as games in general are concerned, it's definitely a problem across the board. I'm starting to tire of many games for the same reason I've grown bored of many movies. After a certain point, it's all flash and no substance. Visually impressive to behold in the moment, sure, but then when you walk away and actually think about what just happened it doesn't really work. I don't even think it's all that difficult to put an interesting, fairly unique twist on a specific trope - many stories are just very clinical and 'safe'.

I think it's telling that Skyrim is still very popular. It encourages players to come up with their own little stories and it offers the player enough agency and choices to sort of go through the game multiple times and explore things from different angles. It's far from the best story ever, but I at least encounter people who know of it and have played it fairly often. The same cannot be said of FFXIV.

[SieyaM]

What happens if people agree with me 'too much'?

As far as games in general are concerned, it's definitely a problem across the board. I'm starting to tire of many games for the same reason I've grown bored of many movies. After a certain point, it's all flash and no substance. Visually impressive to behold in the moment, sure, but then when you walk away and actually think about what just happened it doesn't really work. I don't even think it's all that difficult to put an interesting, fairly unique twist on a specific trope - many stories are just very clinical and 'safe'.

I think it's telling that Skyrim is still very popular. It encourages players to come up with their own little stories and it offers the player enough agency and choices to sort of go through the game multiple times and explore things from different angles. It's far from the best story ever, but I at least encounter people who know of it and have played it fairly often. The same cannot be said of FFXIV.

Skyrim also gives players the proper tools to really build their own story. You can build a family, be a thief a vampire or werewolf or a number of other things and the world reacts accordingly. It's more of the route that older MMOs took as well, where they built a world for you to interact with and build a character in as opposed to XIVs approach which tells a story for you to play a role in. The unfortunate part of the latter is that once the story is told there isn't anything else to do, everything and everyone in that world only serves the purpose of telling that story.

[AwesomeJr44]

What happens if people agree with me 'too much'?

If people reach a certain threshold of agreeing with one of us, they get inducted into the Zodiark Trancer cult lmao

[BRVV]

If people reach a certain threshold of agreeing with one of us, they get inducted into the Zodiark Trancer cult lmao

We are the shadow zodiark money gang, we love casting sunderings!

[kpxmanifesto]

If people reach a certain threshold of agreeing with one of us, they get inducted into the Zodiark Trancer cult lmao

To this day I still have no idea what a Zodiark trancer is.


Edit:

Enjoyed the story up until we get to Elpis then it just falls apart for me. Knowing everything happened because of some depressed ancient and his cringe creation ruined the story for me honestly.

Same. I was really hoping it would be a hostile civilization from a different planet, but I guess that would've taken too much effort to write about.