A game for 4 year olds

[Cleretic]

I have seen this assumption from you before and none seems to adresa it so let me be the one to dispell this delusion of yours. If instead of the story we got we would have received, let's say, your version of the story, a lot more people would have quit the game. After throwing up first, of course. Or laughing histerically. So there's that.

As to your other disgusting assumptions of people's lives and how they're dealing with loss you should grow up. Like a lot. Mentally. And maybe talk less untill you do.

Speaking for myself, I can say that if Endwalker went the direction of Aveyond's rewrite fanfiction (although I'm not sure 'fan' is the right term in this context), I probably wouldn't have even finished it. That story was so full of... at best highly questionable viewpoints and ideas, at worst diverging into being hateful and concerning. I do not want to experience that sort of story, which is why a list of my favorite stories likely has very little overlap with theirs. And a big part of why I play FFXIV is that its story has never been anywhere near that hateful on any level; if Endwalker suddenly diverged into the likes of Aveyond's rewrite, it would've felt like a betrayal of all that had come before.

Not everyone hateplays a game; generally speaking, that's not fun for most people. Even less people continue hateplaying and wallowing in being that negative around the game's community for nearly an entire year afterwards. most people move on and find other things to do with their life!

I honestly think I got more catharsis from (Hopefully...) being rid of Zenos for good then I did the whole "saved the entire world" bit because it didn't feel like it was in grave danger it was stated to be with how limited the scope of the Final Days was.

If I'm allowed a moment to armchair speculate: I actually think that might be because you're more motivated by the character stories of the game rather than the grander and more societal ones. I love Endwalker's ending, but a lot of Ultima Thule was more about grappling with ideas than people, which doesn't always land for people. But for those who are more motivated by more direct character journeys and interactions, Zenos is the finale rather than the coda; one final culmination of a character journey before the credits roll. (Being essentially a representative of previous expansions as The Last Son Of Galvus probably helps with that too.)

[KageTokage]

If I'm allowed a moment to armchair speculate: I actually think that might be because you're more motivated by the character stories of the game rather than the grander and more societal ones. I love Endwalker's ending, but a lot of Ultima Thule was more about grappling with ideas than people, which doesn't always land for people. But for those who are more motivated by more direct character journeys and interactions, Zenos is the finale rather than the coda; one final culmination of a character journey before the credits roll. (Being essentially a representative of previous expansions as The Last Son Of Galvus probably helps with that too.)

A small touch that might've made the ending more satisfying to me would've been showing the places affected by the Final Days returning to normal as well as the reactions of the people living in those regions, as opposed to giving all the attention to our friends who were still safe over in Sharlayan.

Overall, I think I mostly feel like Endwalker needed to do more showing to go with all the telling...which honestly sounds kind of silly when considering it already had more cutscenes/dialogue then any of the prior expansions. Though perhaps not so much when it was admittedly trying to condense two expansions worth of plot into one.

[Thenightvortex]

Speaking for myself, I can say that if Endwalker went the direction of Aveyond's rewrite fanfiction (although I'm not sure 'fan' is the right term in this context), I probably wouldn't have even finished it. That story was so full of... at best highly questionable viewpoints and ideas, at worst diverging into being hateful and concerning. I do not want to experience that sort of story, which is why a list of my favorite stories likely has very little overlap with theirs. And a big part of why I play FFXIV is that its story has never been anywhere near that hateful on any level; if Endwalker suddenly diverged into the likes of Aveyond's rewrite, it would've felt like a betrayal of all that had come before.

Not everyone hateplays a game; generally speaking, that's not fun for most people. Even less people continue hateplaying and wallowing in being that negative around the game's community for nearly an entire year afterwards. most people move on and find other things to do with their life!



If I'm allowed a moment to armchair speculate: I actually think that might be because you're more motivated by the character stories of the game rather than the grander and more societal ones. I love Endwalker's ending, but a lot of Ultima Thule was more about grappling with ideas than people, which doesn't always land for people. But for those who are more motivated by more direct character journeys and interactions, Zenos is the finale rather than the coda; one final culmination of a character journey before the credits roll. (Being essentially a representative of previous expansions as The Last Son Of Galvus probably helps with that too.)

What kind of viewpoints and ideas are you talking about? Anything worse that the narrative of Endwalker supporting genocide? I read the rewrite and I didn’t find anything nearly as egregious.

[Cleretic]

What kind of viewpoints and ideas are you talking about? Anything worse that the narrative of Endwalker supporting genocide? I read the rewrite and I didn’t find anything nearly as egregious.

If you immediately pitch Endwalker as having a message of 'supporting genocide', we're not going to have a productive and informative discussion here, and I have better things to do with my time than try.

[jameseoakes]

If you immediately pitch Endwalker as having a message of 'supporting genocide', we're not going to have a productive and informative discussion here, and I have better things to do with my time than try.

But that is the plot of Endwalker, the Venat outright betrays and exterminates her own people with one of the ingame reasons being outright eugenics or for not dealing with grief the way that Venat decides they should.

[KariTheFox]

What kind of viewpoints and ideas are you talking about? Anything worse that the narrative of Endwalker supporting genocide? I read the rewrite and I didn’t find anything nearly as egregious.

If I remember correctly, probably the part where the rightful heir of Garlean Throne sets up a soapbox, pulls out a megaphone and talks about how democracy is bad actually, and some people would actually be better off as vassal states of the Garlean Empire because they're just too violent and unruly to govern themselves. So, y'know, rhetoric that resembles actually real life justifications for genocide.

More egregious than the mythological genocide of a race of godlike supermen with no real life analogue through a process anti-apotheosis as a story to explain why there is suffering in the world, I'd say.

[Thenightvortex]

If I remember correctly, probably the part where the rightful heir of Garlean Throne sets up a soapbox, pulls out a megaphone and talks about how democracy is bad actually, and some people would actually be better off as vassal states of the Garlean Empire because they're just too violent and unruly to govern themselves. So, y'know, rhetoric that resembles actually real life justifications for genocide.

Democracy isn’t beyond criticism and not all fictional states have to be made democratic. Keeping Empire as is allows to have more variety in the story and is imo a good choice instead of completely wrecking it or making another bland democratic state by Alphinaud’s hand.

More egregious than the mythological genocide of a race of godlike supermen with no real life analogue through a process anti-apotheosis as a story to explain why there is suffering in the world, I'd say.

Nah miss me with the mythological stuff. The only thing that makes it fictionalized is the fact that their souls lived on to reincarnate, the process itself is a full on extermination. If a nuke was falling down on the ground before you, I don’t think your first reaction would be to gasp and say “wow, what a mythopoetic act of apotheosis this is”.

For a game intended for 4 years old, we circle back to genocide discussion pretty often.

The more I think about it, the more I have the impression that Endwalker is a kids book written by a psychopath.

[Cleretic]

Nah miss me with the mythological stuff. The only thing that makes it fictionalized is the fact that their souls lived on to reincarnate, the process itself is a full on extermination. If a nuke was falling down on the ground before you, I don’t think your first reaction would be to gasp and say “wow, what a mythopoetic act of apotheosis this is”.

No, the thing that makes it fictionalized is that it's a complete bag of fantastical nonsense that doesn't resemble any act that's ever happened in human history.

I've stopped comparing acts by Hydaelyn or the Ascians as genocide, because to do so would be to take away from the serious nature of genocide as a concept; it does not deserve to be thrown around to refer to fantastical fictional concepts like the Sundering, a worldwide flood, or even a Rejoining; not to mention, pinning that badge on those story beats is very clearly against the spirit of what the game is trying to do with all of those story beats. The term 'genocide' should reasonably only be brought up when referring to things that actually resemble real-world acts that have been called such, of which FFXIV is not free of, so we should probably save that term for when it's more apropos.


Incidentally, have you been doing the quests that you started this thread to talk about? Because I have, and I find it more interesting than this derail, so let's get back to it.



Gonna spoiler-tag this out of courtesy for the people who haven't yet done it, which I suspect the most talkative people here might not have!

'Robots learn they have feelings' is not exactly a new concept even in this game, but I'm a sucker for it. And I like that a not insignificant part of the quest is about Jammingway having to meet N-7000 where it's at, rather than entirely N-7000 being the one doing the growing.

Interesting that the Nibirun still haven't been resolved; the Bloodsworn capstone is rarely used for story development, so maybe they're beeing held back for another quest. Perhaps the allied tribe quest?

[RukoBoshi]

Gonna spoiler-tag this out of courtesy for the people who haven't yet done it, which I suspect the most talkative people here might not have!

'Robots learn they have feelings' is not exactly a new concept even in this game, but I'm a sucker for it. And I like that a not insignificant part of the quest is about Jammingway having to meet N-7000 where it's at, rather than entirely N-7000 being the one doing the growing.

Interesting that the Nibirun still haven't been resolved; the Bloodsworn capstone is rarely used for story development, so maybe they're beeing held back for another quest. Perhaps the allied tribe quest?

Will there even be an allied tribe questline in the future ? SHB didn't get one, so i was under the impression that they won't do these anymore.

[jameseoakes]

No, the thing that makes it fictionalized is that it's a complete bag of fantastical nonsense that doesn't resemble any act that's ever happened in human history.

I've stopped comparing acts by Hydaelyn or the Ascians as genocide, because to do so would be to take away from the serious nature of genocide as a concept; it does not deserve to be thrown around to refer to fantastical fictional concepts like the Sundering, a worldwide flood, or even a Rejoining; not to mention, pinning that badge on those story beats is very clearly against the spirit of what the game is trying to do with all of those story beats. The term 'genocide' should reasonably only be brought up when referring to things that actually resemble real-world acts that have been called such, of which FFXIV is not free of, so we should probably save that term for when it's more apropos.


Incidentally, have you been doing the quests that you started this thread to talk about? Because I have, and I find it more interesting than this derail, so let's get back to it.

If that goes against the plot of the game then it shouldn't have been what they wrote, they even do a scene where she condemns the ancients before succouring them for existence and I don't appreciate your gatekeeping, genocide seems a apt term where she exterminates a race and its' culture for having the wrong kind of biology and society