YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[nekomir]

That's nice. Your datacenter is also on JP. As this section is predominantly NA and EU players, it stands to reason we'll talk about our norms. And W2W pulls are very much the norm here. If you queued into a 100 Expert dungeons over the next five days on Aether, the overwhelming majority will see the tank pulling everything in sight. On the few occasions that doesn't happen, the healer or DPS are likely to do it for them.

What I want is for the tank to be useful. Small pulls do so little damage nowadays, you are little more than a gimped DPS if you refuse to wall pull. A Dragoon can do just as good a job tanking three months as a Warrior while dealing significantly higher damage to boot. Mobs simply don't deal enough damage to justify anything less than two packs. If you're 70+ and can't handle that. Don't tank.

What part of

(Except in 90 dungeons but hey, point still stands.)

you didn't understand before talking about my datacenter?
If you're adult and still can't read all the text (that you are replying to at least) before replying, don't bother replying to it in first place. it is a waste of time. (Hell considering whatever you wrote, I'm pretty sure you don't even bother to read or take community policy to an account either)

Again, regardless of my datacenter or yours- my point still stands. It is that YOU GUYS WANT IT TO BE NORM, but it never is. you wanna tank to be "useful" all the time? stop pulling silently and throw tantrum on forum or whatever when you die in next 2 seconds. Ironically, it isn't "useful" or helpful behavior.
You want tank to always take your speedrunning playstyle to into account but your tank don't feel like doing it (and you really wanna insist), you gotta communicate or take it up your...back. Sometimes even I don't feel like taking 2 groups not because I can't handle it, but because PTDPS is so bad all of my mits gonna go all cd before next group. You know what happens if there is no mitigation? healer go cry cry because they can't spam holy every 2 seconds and I will definitely floor tank anywhere above 65+ dungeons, and that won't be my fault. Luckily that won't happen as much on 90 because most tank have an absurd amount of way to deal with damage, but the bad dps issue still occurs sometime.

Whatever other thing I wanted to say is already mentioned by three guys below you so, yeah

[dspguy]

That's fine, but pulling as a dps or healer is not griefing (main point of the OP), unlike refusing to grab the aggro from dps or healer.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

Mind you, I wouldn't complain as a tank. I'd just pick the add up and continue. Not worth the argument. More time would be spent arguing than just completing the content and moving on from that player. Also, the logistics of NOT picking up that mob (AOE attacks) make it a bit silly to even discuss it.

[LittleImp]

Can't have your cake and eat it too. If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

Time to explain for the 5000000th time why one of those things is griefing, and the other isn't;



When someone pulls more mobs for the tank, they are doing so because they want to increase group efficiency and clear the dungeon faster.

When someone refuses to pick up mobs in an attempt to kill a party member, they are intentionally decreasing group efficiency and clearing the dungeon slower.

One of these things intentionally obstructs the game-defined objective of the party, the other is an attempt to make the party achieve those objectives faster.

[Shurrikhan]

If pulling over the tank isn't griefing than neither is the tank not picking up those mobs.

Read: "If you, for the purpose of saving the team time and addressing the present bottleneck, have the right to hurry my work when I'm, effectively, being idle or forcing wholly unnecessary constraints upon the entire team... I must then have the right to purposely avoid any work you might benefit from, even if it's to the team's detriment and uniquely breaches my explicit responsibilities."

/smh

[Shurrikhan]

Oh so much fun to pull big just to have the DPS using single target abilities so things are dying at the speed of mud.

First, the DPS pulling for a tank aren't going to be the ones refusing to AoE, or even in a party with a single-target-fixated coDPS or Cure-spammer. It happens when they've identified that the typical/default puller, the tank, is uniquely acting as a bottleneck.

Is it easier on resources? Depends on the skill of everyone in the party.

The difference in pack longevity between having CDs and not is pretty damn huge. The difference in tank sustain and healer throughput between having CDs and not is likewise huge. You would in most cases be safer, even, full-pulling and dealing with that damage under full CDs than dealing with half under full CDs and half under almost nothing. Normal sized pulls aren't going to force GCD healing. A complete lack of CDs during uptime due to taking more than twice as much time in combat, on the other hand, frequently will.

It's cooperative content Try cooperating with the rest of the party. Try talking things over at the start.

But, again, one is the norm, and it's not single pulls. If I'm new, sick, testing out new keybinds/UI, etc., I'm going to say as much. But that's on me to do so. The tank shouldn't be required to ask me if I'm up for healing what is simply a normal pull size. And if all else is going perfectly fine apart from the tank just not pulling enough to even require oGCD healing, I have no problems with "Can we please pull more?" being requested silently via a Stormbite on the second pack, especially since we're in a game where sensitivity to chat puts anyone communicative at far greater risk than those who just do.

[Tigore]

We are starting to recycle points now. Maybe it's best to re-summarize what was discussed and ruminate over what goal we are trying to reach.


Main Topic Point #1 - YPYT Tanks are breaking the ToS rule for Lethargic Play and Aiding the Enemy

It's likely safe to say an overwhelming majority agree with this point. My take is it hurts everyone in the party even though the excuse is to "teach" the one player pulling a lesson.


Main Topic Point #2 - Anyone is allowed to pull

This point is where we are cycling. I even have stories from both FF14 and WoW that branch into grey zone areas I had to go into. To put it short, it is preferable to let the tank herd stuff in so the damage from the DPS is maximized the best it can be hitting all enemies. If enmity / threat is accidentally on a non-tank even with the tank pulling, drag it to the tank so the tank AoEs peel the enemies off of you. Problems can arise when a few players are out of practice or new to using the applicable cooldowns needed to make the mass pulls possible. This gets worse when we have conflicts from disagreements that could potentially breach the ToS for forcing opinions or play styles onto others. I know it's doubtful a Cure Bot Healer or Single Target DPS would pull for the tank, but you would be surprised. I have seen a few extreme examples where this very thing did happen. Why? Beats me if they can't handle mass pulls . . .


Conclusion?

So far, players on the arguing side I am on suggest we communicate our desire to pull more enemies and say their experience has had very high probability of working. In response, this has been rejected with claims that the communication must come from the others wanting slow pulls. Probability seemingly looks quite low the other side would accept slow pulls being communicated. A few might if there are genuinely enough new players.

We are now at an impasse at this rate for the thread. Are we asking for a "Mass Pull" or "Slow Pull" filter for the roulettes? Improved / Extended Halls of the Novice? A roulette achievement link to the Halls of the Novice to show proof of knowing the skills and spells? Asking for the "few" players wanting slow pulls to not queue is obviously not working. Trusts do not have those roulette tomestone rewards after all (which could be a talking point for a potential Slow Pull grouping solution).

[Shurrikhan]

Probability seemingly looks quite low the other side would accept slow pulls being communicated

I'm seeing several posts by people claiming that single-pulling is not the norm that say nonetheless that if someone communicates some reason for pulling slowly that they'd be fine with pulling slowly and none here who say they'd pull more regardless of whatever conditions affect their party, so... from what evidence does that claim come?

The difference in opinion is merely over on whom the responsibility for communication falls -- the ones wanting the more typical outcome or the less typical outcome, and on which is perceived as the more typical.

Admittedly, though, after some thousands of dungeons, I cannot imagine how the latter would be in debate (single-pull runs have almost always been with given cause and even then make up a scant percent of all my leveling roulettes, even if excluding all for which I was the tank).

[Tigore]

A low probability does not necessarily mean it is impossible. That part of the paragraph was merely an observation I see with how the posts were typically worded. A strong, fervent desire for everyone to work towards doing mass pulls. Since it is indeed faster to do and possible with cooldown management. We are in agreement with this point I hope. The sentence right after the quote you chose gets into the typical reason why players on your argument side may make an exception. Which would be new players since they can't just wave a magic wand to instantly know what to do and have the muscle memory.

Would the suggestions I made work out for you? Particularly the one for expanding the Trust system to make it possible for more players to group into. I see more dungeons are getting added into it, so it may perhaps be Square's plan to use it as a solution to this problem.

[Shurrikhan]

A low probability does not necessarily mean it is impossible. That part of the paragraph was merely an observation I see with how the posts were typically worded. A strong, fervent desire for everyone to work towards doing mass pulls. Since it is indeed faster to do and possible with cooldown management. We are in agreement with this point I hope.

Yep, absolutely.

The sentence right after the quote you chose gets into the typical reason why players on your argument side may make an exception. Which would be new players since they can't just wave a magic wand to instantly know what to do and have the muscle memory.

Would the suggestions I made work out for you?

Particularly the one for expanding the Trust system to make it possible for more players to group into. I see more dungeons are getting added into it, so it may perhaps be Square's plan to use it as a solution to this problem.

Sorry, I had meant to cover those at the same time, but must have lost my edit.

We are now at an impasse at this rate for the thread. Are we asking for a "Mass Pull" or "Slow Pull" filter for the roulettes? Improved / Extended Halls of the Novice? A roulette achievement link to the Halls of the Novice to show proof of knowing the skills and spells? Asking for the "few" players wanting slow pulls to not queue is obviously not working. Trusts do not have those roulette tomestone rewards after all (which could be a talking point for a potential Slow Pull grouping solution).

1. The span of exceptions for which no one argues with small pulls...

I do not think this has ever been limited to being new. I once had a kind of bug that kept me awake for days on end (literally some 70+ consecutive hours awake), and towards the end, I just tried to de-stress by doing some leveling. Not the nicest thing of me to do in that state, I realize, as it did slow down the party in a way I knew would happen, but I was desparate for just something to shake things up and let me relax. Had our tank been a Warrior I might not have bothered mentioning it, but I was healing a DRK. At any rate, I just briefly explained that, and we went about as hard as I could handle without it turning stressful, and everyone was super chill about it, with a bit of banter between pulls. Other times I've just had a very drunk tank who encouraged pulling for him and dumping mobs in his AoE spam. It's not necessarily just new or nervous who warrant more attendant action.

No, no one is expecting new players to suddenly know how to do everything their party may want just because their party wants it. Similarly, a migraine won't go away just because one wishes it. But, learning requires some degree of pushing and most do want the playerbase to get better, and if there's gear enough to 3-man anyways, some might not be too keen to slow the run for what accounts to placating the last player's sense that they're contributing normally when they're falling short of their own norm. And those don't seem conflicts worth worrying about. I prefer we just... adapt rather than systematically avoid having to do so, given the likely costs of any that systemic intervention.

2. Expansion of Trust system as solution to small/normal pulling conflicts...

I do not think expanding the Trust system will at all affect the points in contention. In fact, it may slightly worsen it. I do still think we ought to expand it, to fill in those gaps, but Trusts are primarily only useful in helping players figure out the mechanics of a given dungeon, as there is no feedback nor relevant point of comparison to any real runs. With Trusts, one can run in, AoE a few times as tank, and afk through the rest, if single-pulling, and unless suddenly finding oneself randomly in the matchmade equivalent of hell, the flow and speed of Trust runs are nothing alike to real runs; the only point around which they're not exceedingly lenient is mechanics, for which they are actually far more stringent due to being unable to be rezzed. Only if Trusts better mirrored real play (all AI actually AoEing, AI Tank more often pulling multiple groups where reasonable, etc.) would this affect the situation in question.

3. Filtering DF runs by small/normal pull preferences as a solution to conflicts...

While filtering DF runs by "fast" and "slow" might be more streamlined than using the PF (because it's rare to find the PF used for anything but even speedier heal-less runs or leveling spams for that accumulated banter and eventually slightly greater expertise), it likewise doesn't solve the 'problem' of most wanting others to learn how to play decently in at least those most basic of sense (pull as much as can be handled, use CDs, use AoEs) as not to have one's and content variety held back over the years... and it would increase queue times while formalizing into a point of polarization something is just learning curve. Given even a small modicum of experience, normal pull sizes are no more stressful than small pulls, and we probably wouldn't be talking about it to nearly this degree if it hadn't already been so polarized and waved off into 'casualism vs. elitism' instead of just the equivalent of 'in a 123 combo, 3 comes after 2, which comes after 1.'

[dspguy]

Time to explain for the 5000000th time why one of those things is griefing, and the other isn't;



When someone pulls more mobs for the tank, they are doing so because they want to increase group efficiency and clear the dungeon faster.

When someone refuses to pick up mobs in an attempt to kill a party member, they are intentionally decreasing group efficiency and clearing the dungeon slower.

One of these things intentionally obstructs the game-defined objective of the party, the other is an attempt to make the party achieve those objectives faster.

You can make your assumptions and I can make mine. While I clearly state it is in the tank's best interest to just get aggro on on that mob that the DPS/healer pulled, your assumption is that it is the DPS's job to pull.

I don't care who pulls, but you make an assumption. So to you (and others), it is not griefing to pull over the tank. However, that's only based on your assumption. Perusing the actual role descriptions provided by the developers of this fine game, it doesn't say DPS/healers should pull. If the tank's job is getting attention of the mobs (which it does say), that involves pulling. How do you get a mob's attention? You aggro it. Therefore, tanks are the pullers.

But in almost every scenario, tanks should pick up all adds regardless. One of the only times I'd disagree is in a place like Eureka or Bozja when mobs can be trained for malms. If a party member drags in those higher tier enemies in Bozja to an ill-prepared group, it is a wipe. It would be griefing by the DPS to bring those mobs in and not griefing by the tank to ignore them.