YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Tigore]

It is an uphill battle when I read through the ToS for the group to get a mass pull. Though it is not perfect, it was probably the best the devs could think of when comparing to the other MMO game WoW. After all, our lead guy does like the game too from what I hear.

It was a common thing said in their forums that some players interested in trying out tanking quit due to DPS pulling. Not a word was even attempted from some DPS with them running forward the second they zone in. Some have even tried to pull the whole entire dungeon with a fresh geared tank . . . Increased rewards wasn't enough since players reasoned they are here to have fun rather than take the blame for other players' mistakes. Since Shurrikhan suggested doing something similar with silently pulling, it may not go over very well. Especially since some of the players are Warcraft refugees like me who have went through really extreme cases with nonlinear dungeons. You know, all 3 DPS pulling from Narnia, Pluto and Andromeda and it was still somehow the tank's "fault" the AoEs and provokes aren't 1000 yalms. It just might end up getting you guys in trouble as a result to forcefully pull. If not that, then a longer queue as another possible outcome. I certainly wouldn't want a repeat of history for this.

Aside from the rant of experience of how agitated we can get, they have put in options for high end raids and trials to mark for practice and completion. Maybe a few buttons for "Safe Pulls" and "Mass Pulls" for the normal queue? Maybe not perfect either, but it's the best I got so far as a thought. I wouldn't mind some form of improvements for the Halls of Novice. I'll have to check out what it looks like to accurately say more.

In the meantime, I have decided that it is not worth it to push too much on a tank to mass pull. We pretty much have to make the slow tank say something like, "Only impatient DPS want it! My way!" before they might get the action instead. Not likely to happen since they just have to say single pulls are arguably safer. I may mention on fc how my signals were not noticed, but I won't force the tank.

I understand Expert Roulettes are only double pulls that are easy to do, but here we are. Tanks are very often in need throughout the roulettes. You might be able to convince them for a full FC group, but that would mean the tank is still effectively out of the PuG pool.

[Baxcel]

Because one typically leaves the DF for PF only when doing that content in less typical ways that'd oblige that specification. Full pulls are the norm, not the exception.

Big pulls are not the norm.. they are the speed runner players demands.. people do it and some dondon't..

Also if you look 7 posts above yours you can see that even SE agrees that big pulls are not the norm

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Heck SE dosnt want non-tanks to pull in dungeons so much they even removed our AoE provoke!! Ultimatum! Been gone since ShB

[nekomir]

Because one typically leaves the DF for PF only when doing that content in less typical ways that'd oblige that specification. Full pulls are the norm, not the exception.

It isn't norm, it's more that you guys want it to be norm. In my DC, you usually get non-full pull tank as often as full pull tanks. (Except in 90 dungeons but hey, point still stands.)

Y'all have a bloody keyboard, and alphabets. you want tanks to do full pull all the time? use it, otherwise get off your high horse.

[Shurrikhan]

Big pulls are not the norm.. they are the speed runner players demands.. people do it and some dondon't..

Across leveling every job on one or the other of my characters (a few each expansion on both) across the last three expansions, there were maybe a handful of runs in total in which we didn't at every opportunity pull to the wall if such was 3 packs or fewer. Compare that to literally hundreds of full-pull runs. A scant percent, and each time only because the healer or tank said they were, or was soon shown to be, new.

And endgame dungeons are easier. I've had maybe... 3... Expert Roulettes since Stormblood in which we pulled pack-by-pack when playing on DPS when their queues are short. Granted, smaller sample size there; for Expert Roulettes, I'm usually the tank, or the healer capable of keeping the dps up when the tank decides to throw a fit and we end up 3-manning.

_________

The emphasis of the quote was on the "so (just) do it!" If the devs honestly believed that pulling one pack at a time is the norm, that would be enough separation from reality to be a huge red flag.

[Videra]

Snip

Lol. Lmao. Imagine defending pulling one pack at a time when it's objectively faster, easier on everyone's resources, and gives DPS players more dopamine.

[Jojoya]

Lol. Lmao. Imagine defending pulling one pack at a time when it's objectively faster, easier on everyone's resources, and gives DPS players more dopamine.

There's the problem. You're trying to make it about your dopamine addiction.

Not everyone is there for the speed run.

Is it easier on resources? Depends on the skill of everyone in the party. Oh so much fun to pull big just to have the DPS using single target abilities so things are dying at the speed of mud.

It's cooperative content Try cooperating with the rest of the party. Try talking things over at the start.

[ForteNightshade]

It isn't norm, it's more that you guys want it to be norm. In my DC, you usually get non-full pull tank as often as full pull tanks. (Except in 90 dungeons but hey, point still stands.)

Y'all have a bloody keyboard, and alphabets. you want tanks to do full pull all the time? use it, otherwise get off your high horse.

That's nice. Your datacenter is also on JP. As this section is predominantly NA and EU players, it stands to reason we'll talk about our norms. And W2W pulls are very much the norm here. If you queued into a 100 Expert dungeons over the next five days on Aether, the overwhelming majority will see the tank pulling everything in sight. On the few occasions that doesn't happen, the healer or DPS are likely to do it for them.

What I want is for the tank to be useful. Small pulls do so little damage nowadays, you are little more than a gimped DPS if you refuse to wall pull. A Dragoon can do just as good a job tanking three months as a Warrior while dealing significantly higher damage to boot. Mobs simply don't deal enough damage to justify anything less than two packs. If you're 70+ and can't handle that. Don't tank.

[Palitutu]

What I find really sad with this topic is that it seems like no one cares about other players. Tanks who insist on YPYT no matter what don't care for other players. DPS who insist on doing big pulls regardless of how the tank feels don't care for other players. You just have a favored way of playing dungeons.

I have a solution though. Something really innovative that has worked really well for me in 99% of situations. It is called "socializing." If a tank doesn't make big pulls, I ask them in the party chat if they could try doing them. More often than not, they do. Sometimes, they say they're not feeling confident enough to do it. And that's fine. We'll take it slow. Sometimes, they don't answer. And well, it is what it is.

I'm not going to lose sleep because I didn't beat a Speedrun World Record any% for a leveling dungeon. I'm not going to open up a report and tell the GM "please ban this player they made the dungeon last 5 minutes longer than it should have." I do personally only ever do big pulls when I tank, but what if some players just don't want? It's not my job to police the way they play.

A healthy reminder that this is, in fact, an online video game. By participating in group content with completely strangers, you do implicitly agree to be exposed to playstyles that will not necessarily conform to yours.

[Tigore]

@ ForteNightshade

Umm . . . it's not just new or anxious tanks. Even our OP agrees that the issue is not always black and white. Some tanks might downgrade to single pulls to accommodate for the other roles. We sometimes get "Cure bot" healers (that Free Cure trait) and / or single target DPS (because Alisaie does it and the animations look cooler, right?). I am kidding with the brackets.

Sometimes the tanks may very well want to mass pull too, but can't because a few other group members wouldn't be able to handle it. At the same time, I wouldn't want to just kick them from group since they may very well become great healers or DPS later on. Maybe talk to the group nicely if you want them to learn the ropes faster?

[Baxcel]

@ ForteNightshade

Umm . . . it's not just new or anxious tanks. Even our OP agrees that the issue is not always black and white. Some tanks might downgrade to single pulls to accommodate for the other roles. We sometimes get "Cure bot" healers (that Free Cure trait) and / or single target DPS (because Alisaie does it and the animations look cooler, right?). I am kidding with the brackets.

Sometimes the tanks may very well want to mass pull too, but can't because a few other group members wouldn't be able to handle it. At the same time, I wouldn't want to just kick them from group since they may very well become great healers or DPS later on. Maybe talk to the group nicely if you want them to learn the ropes faster?

Just to add the player could also be new to the dungeon itself, I personally like to see the dungeon I'm new to, which is great with the new Trusts but back when I started playing they didn't have that option and many time the DPS forced my group to speed run a dungeon I had never been I'm before.. I missed out on my first time in Castrum and Prea due to rushers, was before locked cutscenes.

One of the biggest ones that always stuck with me was in StB had just unlocked the Burn for the first time and it was current or maybe a few weeks old and a Redmage just mass pulled everything as we were doing it and at the end said that I sucked as a tank and my healer sucked because the Red died pulling everything 500 yalm ahead of us. There's no reason to rush new content or content when your told you have a new player.. otherwise just ask the tank an healer.