YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[LittleImp]

It's about "resource management", not "griefing".

What are you even talking about?

Mana economy in this game doesn't exist, and there are literally maybe 2 trash pulls in the entire game that have dangerous raid-wide damage that would prompt you to spend ogcds on a dps who took extra damage. DPS who pull aren't going to die if the tank is responsive, and they won't require any healing because they won't take any more damage once aggro is established. In fact, a Melee pulling with Arms Length up will actually decrease the total damage taken by the party during a trashpull. The only thing that will prompt you to heal a DPS more is a petty, useless tank who refuses to pick mobs up.

That is why I avoid dungeons. tanks that just move to gather 3x sets of trash w/o notifying nor asking if the group is ok with it.

Mass pulling is just completely standard play in this game, why would you expect someone to notify you about it?

But I do remember one particular instance in Smileton, where three of us queued in duty finder for a fourth, and ended up with a very impatient reaper who repeatedly pulled All The Things. Now, I did my best, but we did end up wiping twice in the span of about 90 seconds, he bailed, and dutyfinder replaced him almost immediately with another dps with whom we went on to finish without further incident.

All this means is that someone would rather take a 30 minute penalty than play with you in a dungeon. If a party is wiping to double pulls in an endgame dungeon like Smileton, it means they've somehow made it through the entire MSQ without ever learning how to play the game at an extremely basic level.

[Jojoya]

What are you even talking about?

Mana economy in this game doesn't exist, and there are literally maybe 2 trash pulls in the entire game that have dangerous raid-wide damage that would prompt you to spend ogcds on a dps who took extra damage. DPS who pull aren't going to die if the tank is responsive, and they won't require any healing because they won't take any more damage once aggro is established. In fact, a Melee pulling with Arms Length up will actually decrease the total damage taken by the party during a trashpull. The only thing that will prompt you to heal a DPS more is a petty, useless tank who refuses to pick mobs up.



Mass pulling is just completely standard play in this game, why would you expect someone to notify you about it?



All this means is that someone would rather take a 30 minute penalty than play with you in a dungeon. If a party is wiping to double pulls in an endgame dungeon like Smileton, it means they've somehow made it through the entire MSQ without ever learning how to play the game at an extremely basic level.

You're making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things.

Not everyone is equally skilled. It doesn't matter if they're level 90. You don't know what path they took to reach level 90 on the job.

Level sync changes what tools the players have available. Being short the extra level to gain an important CD can make a difference, especially if party members are at minimum level for the dungeon with old quest rewards for gear.

Mass pulling is NOT completely standard. I've joined just as many groups where the tank goes one pack at a time as groups where the tank pulls wall to wall. I'm far happier at letting the tank set a pace they feel comfortable with. I'm not in a huge rush to complete the dungeon.

If you don't want to work cooperatively with the group, then you won't mind taking that 30 minute penalty. Will you?

[Rolanberries]

Mass pulling is the standard. I'm sure most people, including myself, have seen most tanks choosing big pulls in higher level content. If you look into this topic and see what people have to say, many people prefer big pulls and view it as the norm (but of course it's understandable to want a slow pace if it's your first time in a dungeon or tanking). I've recently leveled a lot of classes to 90 through Endwalker dungeons and I've never seen a small pull, and this goes for Shadowbringers and Stormblood (Excluding sprout tanks/healers, undergeared tanks/healers and perhaps Bardam's Mettle) since I remember big pulls being the norm as well. If you think about it, why wouldn't big pulls be the norm? Most people have done these dungeons many times before, CDs are utilized more effectively, everything goes faster. Of course small pulls are completely okay but big pulls are the norm.

[LittleImp]

Not everyone is equally skilled. It doesn't matter if they're level 90. You don't know what path they took to reach level 90 on the job.

It requires around 4 inputs to play a tank effectively enough to facilitate mass pulls at level 90, ignoring moving your character. If someone is incapable of that, I am absolutely filled with horrific fear concerning how they operate in the real world. We trust the average person to pilot a 1 ton hunk of metal flying down the highway at 80mph, and you're seriously telling me that expecting them to press four buttons on a video game is too much?

Mass pulling is NOT completely standard. I've joined just as many groups where the tank goes one pack at a time as groups where the tank pulls wall to wall. I'm far happier at letting the tank set a pace they feel comfortable with. I'm not in a huge rush to complete the dungeon.

Mass pulling is considered the endgame standard. Instances of people single-pulling endgame dungeons is absolutely the exception.

If you don't want to work cooperatively with the group, then you won't mind taking that 30 minute penalty. Will you?

Why would I bother taking a 30 minute penalty when I do all of my roulettes with a kicking majority? If someone is going to grief me and waste my time in a level 90 dungeon, I'll just use the wonderful vote-kick feature and instantly fill their slot with someone else who can actually pass the turing test.

[Zolvolt]

You're making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things.

Not everyone is equally skilled. It doesn't matter if they're level 90. You don't know what path they took to reach level 90 on the job.

Level sync changes what tools the players have available. Being short the extra level to gain an important CD can make a difference, especially if party members are at minimum level for the dungeon with old quest rewards for gear.

Mass pulling is NOT completely standard. I've joined just as many groups where the tank goes one pack at a time as groups where the tank pulls wall to wall. I'm far happier at letting the tank set a pace they feel comfortable with. I'm not in a huge rush to complete the dungeon.

If you don't want to work cooperatively with the group, then you won't mind taking that 30 minute penalty. Will you?

Mass pulling is in 90% of dungeons above level 50. Not being equally skilled is -not- what is being talked about btw. If you wipe because someone is clearly struggling, then slow the roll of the dungeon because that is /not/ YPYT. You get the difference between unintentionally wiping vs. intentional wipes right?

[Asari5]

at least try to pull more. there are so many players who dont even try. you dont play this game alone. dont stay in your comfortzone forever. you wont get used to it or getting better if you never do it.
worst thing that can happen is death... in a game... great

[JacobNewblood]

Why are people afraid of wipes? So what? Get up and go again!

Would you allow a healer to go "You stand in it you heal it"? No, cause its their job to keep you alive. Such is the same with YPYT. its Your job to maintain aggro and keep the mobs and their aoes (terms and conditions apply) on you. Would a tank being the first to pull make it easier? Yes. is it hard to get aggro back from another player? No, a aoe, any aoe would do. (unless there is like something majorly wrong with gear or the tank isn't AOE/Attacking)

Don't get me wrong, doesn't mean the other party member is not at fault, either. Everyone is. Communicate!!! Just Communicate you want bigger pulls, or communicate why you're taking smaller ones.

But do not let someone die for pulling. That is, Refer to https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216 the TOS where it says:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well

yes it also states that

Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

Focus on the "it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately."

Letting someone die is not appropriate, no matter what they did, if you wipe, wipe, communicate, and move on or leave. As a tank its their job to hold and matain aggro and as the hall of novice says:

[Zolvolt]

Why are people afraid of wipes? So what? Get up and go again!

Would you allow a healer to go "You stand in it you heal it"? No, cause its their job to keep you alive. Such is the same with YPYT. its Your job to maintain aggro and keep the mobs and their aoes (terms and conditions apply) on you. Would a tank being the first to pull make it easier? Yes. is it hard to get aggro back from another player? No, a aoe, any aoe would do. (unless there is like something majorly wrong with gear or the tank isn't AOE/Attacking)

Don't get me wrong, doesn't mean the other party member is not at fault, either. Everyone is. Communicate!!! Just Communicate you want bigger pulls, or communicate why you're taking smaller ones.

But do not let someone die for pulling. That is, Refer to https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216 the TOS where it says:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well

yes it also states that

Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

Focus on the "it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately."

Letting someone die is not appropriate, no matter what they did, if you wipe, wipe, communicate, and move on or leave. As a tank its their job to hold and matain aggro and as the hall of novice says:

Perfectly said. The ToS is very easily digestible via the provided link. Please take a look.

[Tigore]

It depends on the situation for what you are talking about for the non-tank roles pulling.

Situation A - A patrol is walking too close to the healer and the tank missed that one enemy.

If you decide to peel it off the healer and drag it to the tank, yes please.

Situation B - The DPS are way ahead of the party and pulls assuming people will run in eventually.

If you are with friends who are in Discord saying they are getting there . . . maybe? Not a good idea to do in DF groups since they may be waiting on a cooldown they want for a few seconds. It took me a while to treat the SCH Dissipation cooldown like an extra Aetherflow cooldown.

Situation C - Someone accidentally wanders too far in and face pulls

Most cases, a good tank will forgive you the first time and take the enemy hate off of you. If the offence is repeated multiple times, the tank might ask you to stay behind them to help prevent this situation.

I like to get the mass pulls too to get the dungeons done faster, but we have to be realistic with the group's capabilities. If the tank or healer are new, it would be best to let them ease in first if they need it. If the first pulls are going along with high safety with melted enemies, you can suggest if everyone can try out a double pull next. If they show interest, you can suggest some staggered cooldown usage if they need to know. At least try to be respectful first since others will be far less likely to listen if you are rude to them.

As for the resource management, I don't think Mana was the talking point. We still have to contend with GCDs and oGCD animation locks. Benediction can only get 1 person at a time too. If the healer has to choose between the tank or DPS to use Benediction on, the tank is almost always going to win out to receive it. I will still try to get to the DPS as fast as I can once the tank is healthy. If I have Afflatus Solace ready and the tank has Regen already, splendid. The DPS will likely get that lily heal with the tank getting Benediction.

If I were to say what really happens, the situation is rare that a tank is dying. Regen, Divine Benison, Asylum / Temperance (Wings) with Holy stun spam tends to say no to a lot of the damage that could come from trash enemy packs. Sometimes Asylum and Temperance are skipped because we are over geared. However, we still have to triage for the tank if they need it to minimize wipes.

[Arohk]

It is simple, if i tank i pull fast and as much as there is.
If i am not tanking and the tank is not moving on, i pull the enemies to the tank.