The Problem with Paladin

[PiedPiper]

PLD hate control doesn't suck. WAR just currently does it better. I've never had hate issues as PLD.

Go to page 28 of this thread, read that. Then you'll know why "War does it better" places PLD at not only a disadvantage, but actually hinders the group. The only thing most tanks would realize as a condition where their hat control would suck would be if they were losing threat to healers. As it is, healers can't slow down too much to manage their hate while DDs can. Even cure bombing, however, just doesn't generate that much threat. You'd have to be a truly terrible tank--pld, gld, war, or mrd--to actually lose threat to a healer. Most tanks don't realize how much DDs are holding back to prevent themselves from pulling threat. More tank hate = more dd from the group = faster kills = more loot. Also, with the conditions for speed runs such as they are, warrior has a huge advantage there since "it jsut does it better" means it allows for higher group dps. As I and others have said before, its not enough to "hold hate" and that line of thinking continues to prove that you've missed the point about tanking in endgame. Its not about "holding hate" its about "building more hate." DDs that are worth their salt will never pull because they just stop hitting buttons till the scary red color goes away. The fact that you aren't losing threat doesn't mean that you are a good tank, it just means your DDs don't absolutely suck.

[Alerith]

Hmmmm, my DD's have never had to hold back, and I've never lost the blinking red to them. Two of them being warriors.

Flash, Provoke, War Drum, the Fast Blade/Flat Blade hate combo, Rampart, and now Spirit's Within, is all you need to maintain solid control while tanking.

As long as you are constantly running your rotation, you won't lose hate to a DD that isn't holding back.

So a WAR can do it's damage and still a PLD can tank. Imagine that.

EDIT: Mobs with hate reset are obviously exempt here.

[Aceofspades]

/sigh can argue all day, but like they say "proof is in the pudding" show me a parse where a warior takes less the 30k damage in a 10 minute fight, (and thats being nice) durring Ifrit, then we can talk. but untill then I will stick with my PLD/GLD , again not saying war isnt a good tank , or even the best in its enviorment, but put the right person behind a PLD and WAR dosent hold a flame to PLD/GLD in a tank and spank.

[GreyJorildyn]

Seems you are spread this same idea in several threads Ace. You say WAR might be the best tank in the current gaming environment, and yet then follow that up by saying PLD is better when played by the right person. Those are ideas in opposition to one another and they cannot both be correct.

Right now WAR > PLD. That's just how it is man.

[Colvin]

Just thought I would jump in and add my 2 cents... admitting that no... I did not go read all 37 pages of this discussion (sorry). I agree that there is am MP issue but In specific, after playing PLD and GLD (WAR aside) I have to say that in 95% of the situations I prefer GLD over PLD.

While I have a larger issue with the direction the jobs are going in general, I have always liked GLD (I even liked it when I had to click a button to block.. made me feel like I was doing something active), but putting on the PLD hat kind of makes me feel like I cut my balls off. I guess this is how they designed it but I look at the PLD Job as more like something I equip on very rare occation to tank (maybe) a little better. Honestly I get more survivability out of my GLD than I do my PLD for various reasons. This seems like a failing to me. While I know there was apparently a lot of people clammering for more role definition, I always liked the diversability of the system when we can equip whatever subs we want.

There are several abilities that I use from other disciplines which I use for survivability with GLD that I can't use with PLD. Since this is how I have come to set up my survivability strategy, I dont ever play PLD when I solo. Again, this may be by design, but it is kind of a shame.

[Peptaru]

Stuff.

Did you read the new patch notes for Pld? They're fixing their toys, somewhat. ^^

[Aceofspades]

you took what i said out of context, I said in it's element WAR is a better tank but not when tanking 1v1 boss fights, in no way is WAR superior. AND im not even biast, I used to love my MRD b4 they gimped it but facts are facts mate and I base all my conclusions off of parsed fights in wich we have 2 or more parses to verify findings are acurate. The fact that i can back my words with snap shots of Parses and you can not only further drives my belife that your simply trolling becuase you made previous statements that are simply and factually false and I called you out on it. And as far as PLD doing DPS i was being nice, AOE WAR has the edge but PLD can deal , (and i have in several instances) dealt 3rd or 4th on the parser , with 5 BLMs/THMs in party. But if it will end your unfounded rant, go with WAR, its easier to learn to tank with and any new comer to the game can fill like they know what he/she is doing very easly. but as you said, thats just for now, expect PLD to make a comeback to those who like the easy fix.

[GreyJorildyn]

My rant is founded in the inaccuracies of your statements. I can't really see how I took anything you said out of context when it was simply conjecture by you.

WAR is a better single target tank than PLD too. Hopefully PLD will find its niche. It was my favorite job in XI and it was the first I unlocked after the patch because I want to play it. It's just not firing on all cylinders right now.

[TirionCrey]

you took what i said out of context, I said in it's element WAR is a better tank but not when tanking 1v1 boss fights, in no way is WAR superior. AND im not even biast, I used to love my MRD b4 they gimped it but facts are facts mate and I base all my conclusions off of parsed fights in wich we have 2 or more parses to verify findings are acurate. The fact that i can back my words with snap shots of Parses and you can not only further drives my belife that your simply trolling becuase you made previous statements that are simply and factually false and I called you out on it. And as far as PLD doing DPS i was being nice, AOE WAR has the edge but PLD can deal , (and i have in several instances) dealt 3rd or 4th on the parser , with 5 BLMs/THMs in party. But if it will end your unfounded rant, go with WAR, its easier to learn to tank with and any new comer to the game can fill like they know what he/she is doing very easly. but as you said, thats just for now, expect PLD to make a comeback to those who like the easy fix.

If your PLD is above BLMs in the parse, your BLMs suck ass...don't conclude from the lack of skill of your Pt members to the lack of skill from others.

This way obviously you got no hate issues, when your DDs are unable to actually DD...

Good DDs will pull off hate from a PLD whenever they want. And stop using Ifrit as an example, Ifrit is a stupid j/k.

PS: When tanking Ifrit on my WAR, that you say so yourself, deals more DMG then PLD, I'm last on our parsers dmg wise, except for the healers...so your so called DDs obviously do something wrong...

PPS: How long does it take your group to take down Ifrit? We usually get him down to 30% when he casts Hellfire, then it all depends on how often he wants to use his Dash shit til we get him down...

[Phobos]

I see people are still making comments about PLD damage taken vs WAR damage taken.

While this update is nice, and PLD will take less damage due to shield blocks from DV, people seem to fail to realize a few things;

1. PLD has about 1k less inherent HP than WAR.
2. PLD has NOTHING over WAR in terms of consistant Magic Damage Taken reduction (sure, a better sentinel but you can't count on that)

These two points are key here. While PLD may take a little less damage than WAR after this update, it's likely that we will still resort to WAR's to tank. Magic damage and severe damage are just less potent vs a WAR's HP pool. Most WHM's will be capping either job's HP pool whenever they cure, so having more HP is just plain better. Because PLD has no advantage vs magical attacks over WAR, and anything where PLD vs WAR matters does magical attacks, WAR will win.

Also, the DV update is nice but I'd still like to see some key changes to shields:
1. dlvl should have less of an effect on blocks
2. make battledance materia have block rate as well (some pieces have parry and block, it makes sense)
3. shields should be able to block magical attacks
4. Outmaneuver is still junk, I'd like to see it improved upon even if that means decreasing DV's potency.

A few of those changes, and we wouldn't care that our HP is lower. You must consider the HP pool as being modified by damage taken. If you take less damage than a WAR, your HP is just "worth more" than a WAR's HP, balancing it out. The problem is, though, that we do not take less damage than a WAR on the importand "omgdontoneshotme" attacks.

All that being said, this is mostly speculation and I intend to test out PLD on some stuff tonight. I'm not holding out much hope on the PLD vs WAR front, but in PLD vs GLA I think we've made some key progress.

Also, side-note: I hate Holy Succor... Why do we have something to cure someone else... It's just rewarding tanks that suck at keeping hate.