The Problem with Paladin

[Kiara]

The problem with paladin, and gladiator to be honest, is that it artificially limits the entire party owing to its tiny threat generation capacity relative to warrior...

Paladin is supposed to be a tank and only a tank, its a job, it should do one thing and do it really really well.

warrior dishes out equal enmity while doing quadruple gla's damage and having more HP.

Well said, Pied & Brannigan!

I really hope Yoshdia-san and Team take a really good look at Paladin in light of all our feedback here (and on the JP side). Paladin is so lacking right now, I really hope we get some fundamental changes besides "[Dev0000] Increased damage to Spirits Within." or something minimal like that.

The Paladin's Job *is* the Tank. And it should be desirable, useful, *enticing* and have its own standout advantages of being chosen when going through our Max Level Content (and in any situation).

[Brannigan]

Well, Hallowed Ground doesn't fade on moving (that was in the old preview I think) but Chimera's breaths aren't physical so it ends up being not that amazing there anyway. I haven't really had threat problems that I know of as paladin (I think the new flat blade combo bonus contributes a lot) but warrior dishes out equal enmity while doing quadruple gla's damage and having more HP.

Succor is a good spell on paper but while actually tanking you're likely to be topped up by white mages and waste your time/mp casting it. Veil/Cover are similar in that if your party members are doing well they lose a lot of their power. I think Cover's best use is on a Flare-casting black mage in a big AOE pack or something but Collusion does that better. Spirits Within is a really weak weapon skill considering the power of the other job WSes. Disembowel is just alright but adds Paralysis and Dragon Kick, Ring of Talons, Rain of Death, and Steel Cyclone are all awesome... and they're all on shorter recasts than Spirits.

[TirionCrey]

Hate generation is one thing and it's important, I agree on that, but this whole thing wouldn't be much of a problem, if we actually "block" shit, which is the ONLY thing that makes us unique compared to WAR(not counting MP heal crap)

All SE really needs to do is alter formulas of the game, most of all the "enemy lvl compared to your lvl" formulas, which pretty much make defense and block a useless thing. We don't block, unless with Boon, we might as well tank w/o a shield...

Second to that we got WAY less HP then WAR, which is just not justified, since we were supposed to "mitigate" dmg in return for lower HP...well I don't see anything of that due to the stupid formulas in place for fighting high lvl mobs. I basically get the same dmg as WAR, as I get on PLD when fighting high lvl mobs...stupid, just stupid.

PLD is the inferior WAR right now...

Give us regular blocks back, Enmity on Phalanx and problem solved.

[Noata]

I hate sages. I only have a preblem when you just spit out opinions. your posting a giant post and its mostly opinionated. its okay to have some, but for a majority to be nothing but baseless self drawn conclusion serves only to create a giant false idea of how everything works. this has been going on since day 1 of the forums when people just post nothing but self decided fact.
I have no personal hatred toward the posters but here is a fact i think you should consider before posting a page and a half about tanking

Emnity is the focus of the mob. by holding focus your team can attack. having a larger amount of emnity then other group members in no way increases damage. the early formula More tank hate = higher dps = more loot. is completely false and has nothing to support it. having a high DPS does make the DPS have a higher hate. but emnity is generated many different ways one of which is damage. more emnity does not mean more dps. a tank can maintain hate doing little damage. your DPS can only chain skills based off of cooldowns and TP/MP usage. meaning they have a limit due to cost. your damage level is not formulated by hate. a mage stealing aggro is more a sign of poor spell sequence then anything else.

[Nightmare8675]

short post time! make the skill come from con/pug and give them a provoke instead of divine (useless) veil!

[elreed]

They need to check enmity skills for paladin mostly, right now warrior is better tank than pld, for example the antagonize and vengeance actions are very helpful for hate build, AS I SAID BEFORE DONT NERF OTHER JOB/CLASSES TO MAKE OTHERS SHINE, well right now i dont see any skill for pld that builds enmity easier or AoE enmity as warrior have, maybe if they gave paladin an AoE DoT that has a lot of enmity, (i dont like bringing other games for this, but i have to this time) like in WoW paladin had a ground DoT with a good AoE and lot of enmity damage dealers could have more freedom, right now i feel like berserk and rampage are like stances, like berserk for damage dealing and rampage for tank, well in WoW you had something like that a tank bonus status, healer bonus status or damage dealer bonus status, much like having antagonize ON all the time if you turned on the tank bonus.

It would help a lot having War Drum usable all the time without the block requirement, it should be able to block more or give back the guard stance, it was annoying back then when you had to click on every action in order to do damage (you had to do a lot of stuff back then, not anymore).

For me a job must have a marked difference from a class, everyone already knows that a class is easier to solo stuff and job must help more in party fights, but right now as someone hast stated in other thread about black mage you cant see a big difference between them excepts for a few jobs, maybe if they add those stances add other skills as i mentiones and tweak the skills more we could have the marked difference of jobs and classes and a balanced system.

[Phobos]

They need to check enmity skills for paladin mostly, right now warrior is better tank than pld, for example the antagonize and vengeance actions are very helpful for hate build, AS I SAID BEFORE DONT NERF OTHER JOB/CLASSES TO MAKE OTHERS SHINE, well right now i dont see any skill for pld that builds enmity easier or AoE enmity as warrior have, maybe if they gave paladin an AoE DoT that has a lot of enmity, (i dont like bringing other games for this, but i have to this time) like in WoW paladin had a ground DoT with a good AoE and lot of enmity damage dealers could have more freedom, right now i feel like berserk and rampage are like stances, like berserk for damage dealing and rampage for tank, well in WoW you had something like that a tank bonus status, healer bonus status or damage dealer bonus status, much like having antagonize ON all the time if you turned on the tank bonus.

It would help a lot having War Drum usable all the time without the block requirement, it should be able to block more or give back the guard stance, it was annoying back then when you had to click on every action in order to do damage (you had to do a lot of stuff back then, not anymore).

For me a job must have a marked difference from a class, everyone already knows that a class is easier to solo stuff and job must help more in party fights, but right now as someone hast stated in other thread about black mage you cant see a big difference between them excepts for a few jobs, maybe if they add those stances add other skills as i mentiones and tweak the skills more we could have the marked difference of jobs and classes and a balanced system.

This is definitively the problem. Paladin has no enmity advantages over GLA or WAR, yet also no defensive/stalling advantages. Plus with GLA and WAR having more hp, it's really quite useless right now. Even at that, WAR is just so much better (and easier). GLA even has to constantly spam abilities to get close the tankability WAR has (enmity and survivability), where WAR mostly just needs to do its primary combo. PLD doesn't even get the survivability GLA does.

All-in-all though, I don't really have my hopes up for this update, as the PLD abilities are quite underwhelming.

Also, if PLD is supposed to tank (which should mean it takes the least damage of all the jobs) - why does WAR AF only have 6 less defense than PLD AF? I know defense is relatively garbage, but you would think that PLD would have some inherent advantage in it's gear in terms of defense, considering that was a key component to what they were promising.

Edit: Actually, I think I just came up with a possible solution.

Change Mind from adding to PLD's attacks to adding to it's defense. Keep GLA the same, but use this as way GLA => PLD is "sacrificing attack for defense"

so, GLA would be
+STR = +damage
+MND = +damage
+VIT = +defense

PLD would be
+STR = +damage
+MND = +defense
+VIT = +defense

[SwordCoheir]

So Summed up

Enmity Abilities: Winner WAR
-WAR has Collusion, Antagonize, Provoke, Rampart, Flash, and Sentinel with no restrictions.
-PLD has Provoke, Flash, Rampart, and Sentinel w/o restriction, and Wardrum (which requires a block and 500tp)

Healing Options: Winner WAR
-WAR has Second Wind, Rampage, Bloodbath which don't cost tp/mp.
-PLD has Aegis Boon w/o restriction, Cure and Holy Succor both cost mp (Succor isn't affected by Sacred Prism which could be an excellent hate tool), and Divine Viel requires a different person to cure you (and pretty redundant since WHM's cast Regen anyways).

Blocking / Parrying: Winner WAR
-WAR parrys quite often which negates damage both magical and physical.
-PLD blocks with shields about as often as WAR parries, but only blocks physical moves (save when Aegis Boon is active) and only negates partial damage. Rarely Parries if at all.

New Weaponskills: Winner WAR
- Steel Cyclone is a Tier-3 AoE off an Enmity combo, 30 second recast, and has a chance to Stun.
- Sprits Within is a Tier-2 Single Target combo which requires a block to start, 90 second recast, slight damage boost based on current hp (faulty logic since tanks are taking hits all the time and barely noticeable difference even when at full hp).

Damage Mitigation: Winner Could say Draw but WAR kinda comes off on top for lack of restrictions. ( OH COME ON! )
-WAR has Rampart, Sentinel, Foresight, Featherfoot, Vengence, Rampage (Patch notes say defense though the action says attack power, just put that for clarity.)
-PLD has Rampart, Sentinel, Aegis Boon, Hollowed Ground, Protect, Stoneskin (Hollowed isn't very useful for being 15min hindering effectiveness, and Protect / Stoneskin are redundant due to healers casting it on tanks anyways). To be fair PLD can use Foresight, however you cannot Parry with a Shield Equipped.

Gear Selection: Draw
-Both have similar Gear selection, even both sets of AF are on par defensively.

MP Restoration: Null / Void
- WAR gets Featherfoot, but does not have any abilities that use MP.
-PLD does not have any MP restoration abilities, but Utilizes MP.


Overall, it seems like SE wanted WAR to remain a DPS and secondary tank option and cement PLD in a position where it could only tank. However I wouldn't doubt SE wrongly thought WAR was at a disadvantage in hate gaining / damage mitigation, thus gave WAR all the boosts in those areas in the update and ended up backfiring hard against PLD with WAR's comparable but unrestricted tanking abilities and far superior DPS.

Advice to SE: Don't be afraid to let jobs to work outside of their designated role. PLD can and should be able to be a great DPS in or outside of tanking situations. The base damage of PLD weapons compared too other DPS jobs (which is quite large) should allow them to close the gap by spamming weaponskills faster but are held back by long 60-120 second recast timers. For the times PLD is tanking however it should be allowed to tank harder and more reliably than other jobs no matter the situation, all these restrictive game mechanics placed on PLD only make things harder on it to fulfill it's intended role. Hell, even being able to parry while wearing a shield would greatly increase our damage mitigation possibilities well above WAR to be viable.

[PiedPiper]

I hate sages. I only have a preblem when you just spit out opinions. your posting a giant post and its mostly opinionated. its okay to have some, but for a majority to be nothing but baseless self drawn conclusion serves only to create a giant false idea of how everything works. this has been going on since day 1 of the forums when people just post nothing but self decided fact.
I have no personal hatred toward the posters but here is a fact i think you should consider before posting a page and a half about tanking

Emnity is the focus of the mob. by holding focus your team can attack. having a larger amount of emnity then other group members in no way increases damage. the early formula More tank hate = higher dps = more loot. is completely false and has nothing to support it. having a high DPS does make the DPS have a higher hate. but emnity is generated many different ways one of which is damage. more emnity does not mean more dps. a tank can maintain hate doing little damage. your DPS can only chain skills based off of cooldowns and TP/MP usage. meaning they have a limit due to cost. your damage level is not formulated by hate. a mage stealing aggro is more a sign of poor spell sequence then anything else.

As a quick note, I never once claimed to be a sage, just gave an example supported argument based on my experience. Tessa Jalloh was just kind enough to say it.

Mayhap's you read only the bolded sections, but I gave rather thorough examples and argumentation for my opinions. More importantly, I wonder if you really understand how DD'ing works. Yes, there are cool downs, just like there are cool downs for us, but, most tanks don't realize a few important things.

I have met many many tanks who will say "well, I've never lost threat so clearly I'm good." What they aren't realizing is that DDs are usually having to not use their cool downs the second they become available in order to manage their threat. When a DD sees that their threat is red and not green or yellow, they will slow down. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Try finding some very well geared and experienced DDs and talk to them. Go for an Ifrit speed run (I am currently in a group that wants to video a 5 minute kill) and talk to the DDs, find out when they are holding back. Every time they hold back, their dps is lowered, and you, the tank, are the reason that is happening. With buffs like paeon and ballad, or invigorate on MNK and DRG, TP isn't really much of a limiting factor on DDs. In fact, I would argue that part of a DD's job is to learn a rotation which maximizes their available TP and minimizes the time they spend waiting on it. The same is true for Blackmages and their MP. You have to remember, most of these cool downs actually aren't very long-- a monk with fists of wind is almost never waiting. This is why I say that damage is limited by hate, if they are able to put up more damage than you are threat, then they are limited, the kill is slower, and thats less open chests. I am making one unstated assumption that I will clarify: I am assuming that the DD's in the group are just as good or better than the tank in terms of skill and equipment. And, since its an eight person group, odds are someone has better gear than you.

So Summed up

Overall, it seems like SE wanted WAR to remain a DPS and secondary tank option and cement PLD in a position where it could only tank. However I wouldn't doubt SE wrongly thought WAR was at a disadvantage in hate gaining / damage mitigation, thus gave WAR all the boosts in those areas in the update and ended up backfiring hard against PLD with WAR's comparable but unrestricted tanking abilities and far superior DPS.

I don't really agree with the thought that War is supposed to somehow be a support tank / dd. It is very well set up to be a main tank (as I think nearly everyone has seen). It parrys at same rate as gld/pld blocks (if not more) it has essentially the same force-negate ability (foresight vs boon, granted boon gives a 703 heal), and it has all the same "get hit for less" cool downs. I think war and pld are both supposed to be main tanks, just tanks that function in radically different ways. PLD is supposed to rely on Spells and Abilities to generate hate, War is what you might call a classic "blood tank" -- it gets hit and it hits back hard to hold threat. That is to say, it relies on Damage done and Abilities. Its not as good as a DD as MNK, but it has voke/collusion/antagonize/vengance for that. If PLD could freely use its mana to build threat (hate generated by over curing) it would be just as good as warrior while maintaining two equally viable play styles--Magic and (in theory) more survival vs Damage and (in theory) slightly less survival.

Honestly, I'm not even sure I believe that more mitigation would make it somehow more viable. End of the day, bosses hit us for less than one cure/cura from a well geared White Mage, that seems about right. Granted, FFXIV currently functions such that the damage taken by a tank from a boss is only marginally less than that taken by any other class, but the idea is that the tank is keeping all that damage in one place. Take a look at the excellent work done here to see what I mean about mitigation being a rather marginal thing at the moment http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html Maybe it should be, but if my pld suddenly gets hit for half as much damage, it still won't have enough threat to unfetter my DD's. More over, I'm not sure I want my gld to parry. Yes I played at launch and it was cool, but parry clearly exists to be the equal of shield usage. Then again, if I have a sword and a shield, why can't I use them both as defensive tools? Come to think of it, you may be right. IF they give us parry AND make our MP a viable means of threat generation, Paladin would be a balanced and viable tank creating a paradigm of "Do i want to contribute to group DPS more and rely on the healers" or "Do I want to be more self sufficient to lighten healer load and rely on the DD's."

As a further side note, many people in this thread have underestimated warrior's ability to self heal. If you have rampage up (which you should) and you pop mighty strikes, then you can very easily heal yourself to full. That is just a potent a 15 minute ability as paladin's, if not more so. Shortly after patch I was doing ifrit with all jobs, hellfire killed nearly everyone, I got down to 100 health, blew Mighty Strikes, side stepped, Godsbane combo, boom, full hp and whm's get raises off. That strikes me as exactly the sort of thing a main tank should be able to do once in a blue shit storm.

[Aratharn]

Healing Options: Winner WAR
-WAR has Second Wind, Rampart, Bloodbath which don't cost tp/mp.
-PLD has Aegis Boon w/o restriction, Cure and Holy Succor both cost mp (Succor isn't affected by Sacred Prism which could be an excellent hate tool), and Divine Viel requires a different person to cure you (and pretty redundant since WHM's cast Regen anyways).

Think you meant Rampage instead of Rampart for WAR healing. Rampage heals you whenever you crit.