Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Arguscbf]

Right, I think the idea of RDM being low personal DPS but tons of raid buffs is core identity and thematic to the job. Even in FF1, RDM's main purpose was to buff your melee with Haste and Temper while providing small personal damage themselves and having backup heals. They were also very good at cleaning up trash efficiently as their lower stats/spells didn't matter as much on trash. So, they'd kill the trash nicely, then in harder fights focused more on support. That's job identity for RDM to me, given they're not the Enspeller spellblade Mystic Knight type like they sort of had in FF11, so I think emphasizing more on Embolden and other raid damage buffs is what they need. In FF3, you only used them early game to clear a few magic only dungeons then swapped off as fast as possible, and in FF5 you only used them to learn Doublecast on your other real magic using jobs. They've never really been known to be monster powerhouses of personal damage, so placing them just above BRD and DNC makes sense. I love RDM, and I love playing RDM that way.

I don't care about FFXI. This is FFXIV where DAMAGE matters. I find extremely absurd you saying RDM has tons of raid buffs. RDM has only two buffs which is Embolden(offense) and Magick Barrier(defense). PERIOD. MNK has the same quantity of buffs which is Mantra(defense) and Brotherhood(offense). "Ohhh but RDM has Verraise" Verraise isnt an utility at all because it's a DPS loss and RDM is a DPS! I agree Verraise is great for progging but that's only it because for a clear party is useless where you need that DPS check and sometimes need all players alive to resolve some mechs. It just doesn't make any sense RDM doing less dmg than SMN even when not using Verraise.

[Mithron]

I don't care about FFXI. This is FFXIV where DAMAGE matters. I find extremely absurd you saying RDM has tons of raid buffs. RDM has only two buffs which is Embolden(offense) and Magick Barrier(defense). PERIOD. MNK has the same quantity of buffs which is Mantra(defense) and Brotherhood(offense). "Ohhh but RDM has Verraise" Verraise isnt an utility at all because it's a DPS loss and RDM is a DPS! I agree Verraise is great for progging but that's only it because for a clear party is useless where you need that DPS check and sometimes need all players alive to resolve some mechs. It just doesn't make any sense RDM doing less dmg than SMN even when not using Verraise.

I'm not saying RDM DOES have tons of raid damage buffs. I'm saying they should. I don't know how Embolden compares to Searing Light, but it should be much better while SMN and RDM have very close rDPS but SMN has better aDPS. That way, all DPS contribute overall to total damage the same, because if RDM's support DPS should be better than SMN's, they even out in personal DPS. The core identity of RDM should be "I play RDM with the intention of being a support DPS" similar to BRD and DNC.

I do not believe defensive and mitigation utility should affect DPS as DPS jobs. Leave that for the tanks.

[Arguscbf]

I'm not saying RDM DOES have tons of raid damage buffs. I'm saying they should. I don't know how Embolden compares to Searing Light, but it should be much better while SMN and RDM have very close rDPS but SMN has better aDPS. That way, all DPS contribute overall to total damage the same, because if RDM's support DPS should be better than SMN's, they even out in personal DPS. The core identity of RDM should be "I play RDM with the intention of being a support DPS" similar to BRD and DNC.

I do not believe defensive and mitigation utility should affect DPS as DPS jobs. Leave that for the tanks.

I main RDM because i like its gameplay and not because it's a "support DPS"!
RDM is a DPS! If they add tons of buffs to it they'll lower its dps even more so what's the point of bringing a RDM to run Savage if you have an enrage timer due to DPS check? Easier said than done. It's not your job that is being cut off from PF...

[FireMage]

We're getting to the fun part.
Walking is easier than running but you're picking 2 examples that aren't hard to begin with.
Both requires the same thing: Alternate the movement between your legs. The difference is the speed at which you do so.
The complexity of "walking" and "running" is the same, the difference being speed..

If we were to take your example, your DPS rotation is nothing but pressing buttons and higher APM jobs are harder as your complexity example is the speed between each buttons.
Which means, by your very own logic of walking and running, MCH is hard and RDM is easy.
And according to you, that's a fact.

Your next line is "Positionals are hard"

Imagine saying MCH is harder than RDM and trying to do so seriously. You're funny

[CKNovel]

Imagine saying MCH is harder than RDM and trying to do so seriously. You're funny

Congratulations you completely missed the point showing your argument of walking and running was flawed.
I increased the text that I did not said so, but your logic applied to the game would imply that MCH is harder than RDM.
You claimed walking is easier than running, therefore you claim high APM is harder.

I didn't said anything about MCH and RDM difficulty, you're the one who brought the logic that implied it.
I merely pointed out it was flawed, therefore arguing high APM is not harder than low APM. Therefore, arguing it doesn't make MCH harder than RDM.

Thought I'm sure you're doing it out of bad faith and copium, trying to sneak a "win" after all your failed arguments.

[FireMage]

Congratulations you completely missed the point showing your argument of walking and running was flawed.
I increased the text that I did not said so, but your logic applied to the game would imply that MCH is harder than RDM.

Thought I'm sure you're doing it out of bad faith and copium, trying to sneak a "win" after all your failed arguments.

Swing and a miss. See what you're actually doing is a combination of two fallacies, putting words in my mouth, and strawmanning. Because in the end you can't counter that difficulty isn't subjective. RDM has several things that make it more complex than MCH; reacting to RNG, having to deal with cast times, having to deal with being in melee range, the worst movement in the game, etc. Meanwhile MCH has the 2nd easiest rotation and absolutely no downtime (even melee have some downtime here and there like on KBs you have to take, e.g. Impact). But by all means, continue to act like you know what I said better than do

[CKNovel]

Swing and a miss. See what you're actually doing is a combination of two fallacies, putting words in my mouth, and strawmanning.

You're the one putting words in my mouth, I never claimed "MCH is harder than RDM", that's hypocritical.
Strawman argument is taking argument out of context to create a new idea, I merely applied your logic to the context which is the context to start with.

None of those, I just argued your logic was flawed. I admit the debate is starting to get aimed at individuals and should stop.
Running is harder than walking it's technically true as running requires more resources but you can't compare those to rotations.
Walking and running remains the very same processes but at different speed. Your argument is based on technicality.

Difficulty remains subjective.
Sorry, but the subjectivity of difficulty is actually a fact. It can be shared among large groups of player but will never be the same for all.
You're the one who have yet to back up difficulty isn't subjective.

even melee have some downtime here and there like on KBs you have to take, e.g. Impact

This isn't the positionals argument, but we're very close to my prediction.
If you think missing a GCD is what makes a melee difficult, we went back full circle. I have nothing more to say.

I wish you good luck out there.

[FireMage]

Running is harder than walking it's true but you can't compare those to rotations.

Difficulty remains subjective.

I love how you still say this, yet acknowledge in the sentence prior that it's not actually true. Basically just confirmed you're trolling at this point

[Hanayumi]

At this point they should just even out all jobs within their respective roles, then slap a passive dps increase on selfish jobs while taxing jobs that buff the damage of party. I personally dont think rez, defensive buffs, and such really matter all that much since all jobs have something now. And job "difficultly" shouldnt really matter either as a good number of folks enjoy complex jobs over the simple ones while some folks cant physically even deal with complex jobs...

[FireMage]

At this point they should just even out all jobs within their respective roles, then slap a passive dps increase on selfish jobs while taxing jobs that buff the damage of party. I personally dont think rez, defensive buffs, and such really matter all that much since all jobs have something now. And job "difficultly" shouldnt really matter either as a good number of folks enjoy complex jobs over the simple ones while some folks cant physically even deal with complex jobs...

And? Not everything needs to be accessible