Warrior potency

[dspguy]

I'm sure there are plenty of cases where TBN is superior. Personally, I've found the ability to heal myself and another player is huge. It doesn't cost GCDs directly (like Clemency). There are rarely back-to-back huge damage hits that would mean the regen-like effect of having to wait 4 GCDs for 4 smaller heals is ever a big deal. The way I see it, if there's a shared tank buster, the DRK can shield either himself or the other tank. Each tank could pop one CD, then apply Nascent Flash to the other tank - 4 hits later, back to full. Healers keep on DPSing.

I don't raid, so there are probably merits of TBN that I don't appreciate. It really sounds like splitting hairs to me.

[Undeadfire]

I'm sure there are plenty of cases where TBN is superior.

TBN/HOC have always been more superior in the Savage/Ultimate scenes, Nascent can't do much if there's nothing to attack, or gain, or terribly useless thrown on non physical damage players. TBN ignores the damage reduction penalties and HOC is a literal Rampart on it's own.

[NightHour]

taking advantage of an extra Edge charge

It's not really an "extra" edge charge at all.


You would of spent the 3,000 MP on Edge if you didn't need to TBN, it's just giving you what you would of used anyway.



Also Bloodwhetting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TBN and it's not even close.



TBN needs to be free, lose the edge proc and up CD to say 25.


Maybe make the edge proc into something like "If the shield does not break the target heals for say 350-400 cure potency"

[Rithy255]

How? You really need to quantify this statement, because PLD has two raid mitigation abilities to the other tanks' one, a spammable targeted heal, and Cover (lol). I won't mention the nuances of Intervention, since each tank has a counterpart ability with its own nuances that make it better or worse than the others in certain situations.



Yes it is. Only bad players who are only able to fixate on the ideal run make claims like this. Now, I wouldn't say Clemency is even good, but it's far from "not usable."

I think my opinion on PLD's utility is more or less, too situational having 2 party wides (3 really on pld as other tanks also get 2 with the role action "reprisal") is good? But generally nothing to write home about considering Divine veil is a bit clunky requiring a GCD heal to even activate, it also doesn't effect you for no reason, Passage is good but only when it lines up (Yes you can flash it but people have to be directly behind you so its way more annoying then any other tank cd), Cover is a complete Joke, Clemency is fine as it is personally but clemency in it's current state doesn't really need to "tax" PLD on anything like GNBs Aurora, Oblation on drk or equilibrium on war, as all of those abilities have more general use then clemency? (I don't really know if they compare but PLD lacks two general mits), Another thing is PLD's strong self healing is restricted to your rotation instead of something you can control, Also with intervention it's just worse holy shelltron while other tanks get the same or a better effect from using it on yourself.

I generally agree clemency isn't useless, it's great in situations it's even helped me before get further in ext fights and learn more mechs faster, even then I don't think it hurts PLD to keep it for solo content and such.

My main gripe with the Idea of pld being "utility tank" is the fact that some of it's utility is very outdated or super situational, with its raid wides i just want general touch ups to make them less janky I get that some of those points don't effect PLD at the highest level, but I generally want those sorts of abilities to be touched up, cover to be reworked. ECT.

[fulminating]

I wonder why it might be beneficial to store an edge and carry it into raid buffs, particularly on a job with as strong burst as dark knight.

[Undeadfire]

It's not really an "extra" edge charge at all.


You would of spent the 3,000 MP on Edge if you didn't need to TBN, it's just giving you what you would of used anyway.

Technically it is, I'm talking raid buff window and avoids over capping MP, you should think what I stated.

Also Bloodwhetting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TBN and it's not even close.

Stacking % mitigations penalties the gains. 30% + 10% isn't 40%, it's around 37%, further if added. TBN ignores mitigation penalties allowing Healers to mitigate more damage values with Aquaveil for example, and your tank partner chucking mitis, do not underestimate value.

Bloodwhetting is hell broken in dungeons. Raid content? It's pretty meh, and it's more meh this raid tier. TBNs low cooldown is underrated actually, damage negation from multi autos, AOEs: more DPS for Healers. Bloodwhetting in current raid tier cannot be effectively spammed, cooldown timings and needing it for DOT reduction from busters, barrier effectively do not reduce. Does that make TBN bad? No, Drk has 4 damage mitis than TBN and current raid tier, Dark Mind is nuts.

Bloodwhetting isn't as powerful as it's made out to be, only in dungeons.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Clemency is fine as it is personally but clemency in it's current state doesn't really need to "tax" PLD on anything like GNBs Aurora, Oblation on drk or equilibrium on war, as all of those abilities have more general use then clemency? (I don't really know if they compare but PLD lacks two general mits)

Nothing really compares to Clemency, which is fine given Clemency's opportunity cost.

PLD should get an equivalent to Thrill of Battle/Dark Mind/Camouflage (if only to avoid another DSR P6 situation), but I don't think it needs an equivalent to Equilibrium/Aurora. That said, I would maybe make its equivalent to Thrill et al. slightly stronger than its counterparts to compensate.

Also with intervention it's just worse holy shelltron while other tanks get the same or a better effect from using it on yourself.

I don't really agree, but no other tank even has an equivalent to Holy Sheltron + Intervention. To be clear, I'm not saying they should; short CD differences are fairly balanced and interesting across the tanks.

My main gripe with the Idea of pld being "utility tank" is the fact that some of it's utility is very outdated or super situational

I wouldn't characterize PLD as the "utility tank," but it does have the "most" utility at the moment. However, it doesn't necessarily have the "best" utility, nor is it obviously notably advantaged in this regard.

If Divine Veil were clearly superior to its counterparts, then the situation would be different—but it's not. In reality, Divine Veil is sometimes better due to clever use of its activation window allowing "extra" uses across a fight, but it's usually slightly worse.

[MrZalgo]

It's not really an "extra" edge charge at all.


You would of spent the 3,000 MP on Edge if you didn't need to TBN, it's just giving you what you would of used anyway.



Also Bloodwhetting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TBN and it's not even close.



TBN needs to be free, lose the edge proc and up CD to say 25.


Maybe make the edge proc into something like "If the shield does not break the target heals for say 350-400 cure potency"

TBN also doesn't suffer from mitigation penalties, which leaves room to adding extra mit on top of the shield. Oblation by itself is fairly weak but combined with TBN it mitigates way more damage than that of BW (This is due to BW at 4 sec being only 19% reduction, a 10% shield, and a weak self-heal in raid category. This is compared to TBN + Oblation which is a flat 35% damage reduction due to the shield reducing effectively 25% of the damage and the oblation is added on top of the TBN without penalty.).

TBN also allows you to bank mana for the 3/5 rotation for 2 minute buffs, allowing you to consistently break the mana cap and dish out a bunch of DPS on raid buffs.

TBN is also 15 seconds which CANNOT be understated as to how useful it is. Using TBN as soon as possible will result in you not only mitigating the TB itself, but you will still have enough time to use TBN in the middle of the DOT, reducing even more damage and giving another proc of Dark Arts. This can't be done with HOC or BW since they are on 25 second cooldowns.

TBN and Oblation can also be passed to other party members. I don't even need to explain why that is so good.

Honestly I would hate for TBN to be changed. As of its current state it is fine and more broken than ever honestly with the addition of Oblation.

[Marxam]

The point to TBN is to pair it with another cd. In a heavy mitigation meta TBN will beat the other cds but in heavy healing situations BW/NF to heal two ppl simultaneously is better since its a passive and you can force crits and ppl also sleep on SiO.

Ironically WAR used to pair mitigations i.e. Awareness + RI, Berserk + Bloodbath, etc. and lets not forget IB used to give you 20% mitigation on demand, but ever since ShB the devs have basically consolidated into a single cd. It's even more ironic when WAR used to peak in dmg with downtime back when Berserk was god tier. It was only balanced by the fact that it didn't match to every TA since it was 90 secs but if you applied the same design in current meta it would achieve the same effect as DRK but not be so ogcd reliant.

Imo the difference between the tanks job exclusive short cd is so minute that it doesn't justify the large gap in damage. Regardless these two tanks need more ehp mitigation like TBN and ToB and maybe the devs should consider splitting the tanks into flat mitigation (PLD/GNB) and ehp mit (WAR/DRK) tanks. It's been done before for three expansions when shield oath and defiance were still in the game.

[Sqwall]

Bloodwhetting is very noticeable if you are not using it. At least that's what my healers tell me, as they can't DPS as effectively if I don't use it. This tier has forced for a more smart approach to using BW/NF.

P5s you have to use it VERY early to have BW/NF available for the tank swap. If you delay to long you won't be able to toss Nascent to your OT for the Toxic Crunch. It's best to time it as there is 50% bar left on toxic crunch so that you get healed and the OT get healed for a couple GCD's The mitigation is the key...the healing is a bonus for the healers as Nascent is criminally undervalued in raids.

P6s you have a much more straight forward approach to tank busters at mitigation. It's either shared or spread/swap. Due to how warriors invuln works...it's best to share the chaleic synergy and pop nascent for your MT/OT. If you have a PLD/WAR combo...the tank busters are technically irrelevant as Intervention + Nascent is flat out broken and the DOT barely hurts. P6s is a horrible fight for tanks as the TB's come every 2 min right in time for you to try to burst while triple weaving your mitigation....you have to use your mitigation early to prevent triple weaves. Otherwise your GCD will go into the stratosphere like 9seconds or so.

P7s much like P6s is a shared or spread style tank buster but the DOTS tend to be much more volatile as sometimes with the way that the AOE's come out you may have 2 tanks with 2 DOTS at the same time. Again with the way warriors invuln works...it's smarter to just stack for condensed and normal spread for dispersed. Nascent is yet again a incredibly strong tool to throw on the other tank (agro doesn't matter in p7s so swaps aren't required).

In summary:

Bloodwhetting is great if you can time it around the tank busters. It's used to supplement self sustain for more healer output. In a 1v1 setting Bloodwhetting might only heal for 20-30k. It varies.

The mitigation is where it's at honestly.

Bloodwhetting:
-20% for 4 whole seconds
-10% after initial 4 seconds for another 4 seconds.
Each attack = 400 potency heal long enough for 3 GCD's
A shield that's = to 400 potency cure. It lasts for 20 seconds or until the cure value is used up. This could be anywhere from 10-20k give or take. (not sure how much damage it prevents)

Nascent Flash:
Literally does everything above to your target only the healing is shared 100% between the warrior and target. Warrior just needs to attack to pop the 400 potency heal. So if you time nascent right...both tanks get a crap ton of healing. The only downside to Nascent is the warrior doesn't get the mitigation...only the healing.

So I wouldn't discount bloodwhetting in a raid completely...but Nascent is incredibly powerful when used at the right time. I'm enjoying the Tank/Healer mechanics this tier considerably more then I ever have. Nice to see healers sweat lol.