The Devs need a much needed thanks!

[Raoabolic]

I'll do you one better. The old EQ forums was like this before and during WoW's initial dropped.

*EQ went the way of the whiteknights*
*Move to EQ2 to see if they do better*
*they add a cash shop to EQ that gives you exp/AA bonuses*
*the mounts in the cash shop gave buffs*
*Those people that chased me away from EQ are now in EQ2*
*They are actively defending the cash shop and telling others to leave if they hate it*
*Eventually leave when they lean way to heavy into the cash shop*
Geeze, perhaps I should give WoW a shot. This can't possibly happen a third time~!

[Vahlnir]

When WoW's Cataclysm released and the game went off the rails the forums were filled with people who sounded just like this. Maybe if that period's detractors had been taken more seriously that game might still be worth playing and that same loud "everything is fine" group would have more than a toxic echo chamber.

Ideally, that is what should have happened with WoW, but even if the player base had decided to take a stand then, I doubt the devs would have listened. Even after losing millions of players 2 expansions later in WoD, they stood their ground for the most part. Ion and his cronies are incredibly stubborn. MoP got a lot of crap during its time, but now it is remembered pretty fondly. Still my favorite expansion overall. The only reason Legion happened in all of its casual glory was because they were losing money. The next expansion they were right back to their same shenanigans. And the one after that, Shadowlands. WoD was responsible for the most player loss in total, but I feel that Shadowlands came the closest to actually killing the game. It's too early to tell how Dragonflight will go at this point, but I don't have much hope for it given their less than stellar track record.

[Kes13a]

As for the other two upcoming MMO's, it will be interesting to see. Personally I wish Wildstar had done better. That game hit a nail really hard that nothing else came close to since.

Wildstar was decent and fun to play.... and then they started listening to the player base.

after that it really went off the rails in so many bad directions. one reason I still firmly believe the show runners need to stick to their vision, in the case of this game, stick to what has worked for this long, discard what hasnt.

[Midareyukki]

Wildstar was decent and fun to play.... and then they started listening to the player base.

after that it really went off the rails in so many bad directions. one reason I still firmly believe the show runners need to stick to their vision, in the case of this game, stick to what has worked for this long, discard what hasnt.

Except experience taught them the exact opposite, hence the ARR transition and their slideshow. And a lot of the QoL in this game only exists because fans so asked for. In fact, your own race's male counterpart exists due to that.

It's great that devs have a vision to follow, but disregarding fans in its entirety is also dangerous. There needs to be a balance. And while this game really does have a cool dev-fanbase experience, it's not a very healthy one. Square is incredibly secretive and isn't transparent when it would actually help them out. Not just to follow their own vision, but to make sure fans understand and enjoy the vision itself. Sometimes, more so than asking fans what they think and working off of it, it helps to temper fans' expectations than blind promises and vague denials. For example, saying "It's impossible" and then ending up doing it really muddles the definition of the word "Impossible". And it makes people demand for stuff deemed "unreasonable", because when you actually mean it's impossible, you just end up sounding like the Boy who Cried Wolf.

Warframe also has a relatively good fan-dev experience, and it's far healthier because the devs do listen to fans while also working on their own vision, and are transparent about it. Fans know what to expect and are still surprised by the work done. And fan suggestions and even exploits aren't derided, but incorporated into the game as features. Parkour didn't exist until the fans started doing it, and now it's become a staple mechanic that the devs encourage.

[Xaruko_Nexume]

Despite this last week and the amount of flak that they received, they work extremely hard to bring us a game that is much loved and enjoyed. The amount of hate I have seen this past week because a class can't do 1% more damage is absurd in the slightest, but then again that is only less than 2% of the community most likely complaining. Those that are complaining are the ones that have zero ideal what they are talking about and are only outcrying what their favorite streamer is telling them to outcry.

Again: Thank you Devs for bringing us an amazing game. I know mistakes are made, we are all human and you all do your best to fix it. I look forward to seeing what you bring in 6.25 and 6.3.

Only read the OP so far but I think that will be enough. Im sure everything underneath just devolved into complaints about 1% damage and healers not being able to not heal enough. Game is not perfect, but I agree with your sentiment. The game is amazing and the devs deserve more praise for it.

[ReynTime]

Well Yoshi-P's "Vision" back in ARR and Heavensward wasn't the same as now. And when he first talked about ARR changes during 1.2X he had a very different idea for what the focus and player expression would be for battle content.

So before you Yoshida worshippers continue using "their vision" as a way to say some of us are wrong, well, YOU were the ones who made him NOT stick to their original visions. If you think the game is fantastic now, it wasn't because they were sticking to their vision.. It was because they didn't.

[Silverbane]

Wildstar was decent and fun to play.... and then they started listening to the player base.

after that it really went off the rails in so many bad directions. one reason I still firmly believe the show runners need to stick to their vision, in the case of this game, stick to what has worked for this long, discard what hasnt.

The two aren't incompatible. as you probably know.
You can listen to the playerbase, and still decide to not do what the vocal portion of the playerbase wants.
After all:

• we players typically desire everything, for free, and right now -- although the more mature of us moderate those desires in light of our perception of the limitations the devs face.
• we players want contradictory things, as well. Even an individual player can have contradictory desires, to "have their cake and eat it too," but the more common scenario is that some want one thing, and others want the exact, incompatible opposite.
• we players, even those of us with software and systems experience, typically have no experience or knowledge with the technologies and challenges involved in implementing a world-wide real-time massively-multiplayer online game. So we can only guess at what the devs can do, we don't really know.

We players are very much like children in these regards, and accordingly the devs should listen and keep our remarks in mind -- as they stick to their vision.
They have proven that they know how to make a successful MMORPG, and we haven't.

Later:

saying "its impossible" I think can be often translated as "we cant do it now" ... So I dont look at it as an outright falsehood, but more along the lines of "we cant do that in the present system"

"Impossible" can also mean "the resources we would need to do that are committed to other things," where resources can be anything and everything from employees to rack space at the data centers. Such resources often cannot be increased quickly, for reasons such as "good programmers are hard to find," "integrating new people into the team takes months," "upgrading the cooling system at the data center takes months," "relocating to a new datacenter because the old one can't be upgraded takes years" ... you get the idea.

Time exists so that everything doesn't happen all at once. Sometimes, that sucks.

[Kes13a]

Except experience taught them the exact opposite, hence the ARR transition and their slideshow. And a lot of the QoL in this game only exists because fans so asked for. In fact, your own race's male counterpart exists due to that.

It's great that devs have a vision to follow, but disregarding fans in its entirety is also dangerous. There needs to be a balance. And while this game really does have a cool dev-fanbase experience, it's not a very healthy one. Square is incredibly secretive and isn't transparent when it would actually help them out. Not just to follow their own vision, but to make sure fans understand and enjoy the vision itself. Sometimes, more so than asking fans what they think and working off of it, it helps to temper fans' expectations than blind promises and vague denials. For example, saying "It's impossible" and then ending up doing it really muddles the definition of the word "Impossible". And it makes people demand for stuff deemed "unreasonable", because when you actually mean it's impossible, you just end up sounding like the Boy who Cried Wolf.

hardly call my male "counterpart" an advance but anyway lol

it is a balance and there could be some culture involved as well. I am not saying QoL suggestions are bad to a degree.

secretive yes, I think their preference is to simply not give things away. how often, in many games, do off hand utterances get nailed down as hard facts by the playerbase as expectations? saying "its impossible" I think can be often translated as "we cant do it now" take the starting inventory in WoW, for years it was "impossible given the code and how its built into the game" yet one day, it magically increased in size. So I dont look at it as an outright falsehood, but more along the lines of "we cant do that in the present system" and they note it down as something they they can look into once other changes come into play.

people will demand unreasonable things anyway, thats more a human thing than a dev thing. plus, if they are doing something innovative, they arent going to tell the playerbase because the competition is looking for innovative ideas too. so its a double edged sword and if in testing, it doesnt work, then the playerbase is up in arms "but you said...."

[Midareyukki]

hardly call my male "counterpart" an advance but anyway lol

Uhh you said it not me! xD

Still, yeah it might not be, but to a lot of people who do prefer playing Male Miqo'te it was We wouldn't have it had the devs not listened. Because originally they wanted us to have only male Roes and female Miqos.

it is a balance and there could be some culture involved as well. I am not saying QoL suggestions are bad to a degree.

secretive yes, I think their preference is to simply not give things away. how often, in many games, do off hand utterances get nailed down as hard facts by the playerbase as expectations? saying "its impossible" I think can be often translated as "we cant do it now" take the starting inventory in WoW, for years it was "impossible given the code and how its built into the game" yet one day, it magically increased in size. So I dont look at it as an outright falsehood, but more along the lines of "we cant do that in the present system" and they note it down as something they they can look into once other changes come into play.

people will demand unreasonable things anyway, thats more a human thing than a dev thing. plus, if they are doing something innovative, they arent going to tell the playerbase because the competition is looking for innovative ideas too. so its a double edged sword and if in testing, it doesnt work, then the playerbase is up in arms "but you said...."

Okay, I think what you mean, QoL does exist and it does stem from player feedback. Whereas we have additions that came at a really dumb cost, and we have suffered from that. A lot of people dislike the way Blue Mage was designed and implemented, despite knowing that the devs didn't want to implement such a job and they couldn't capture the way FF5 did it without it being either too broken or too esoteric. (And yes, I'm setting aside the ideas people had to implement the job into the game).

But even that last bit, like... A lot of people forget that the reason we don't have Glam Dressers in housing yet is because it breaks the way housing is designed. If anyone messes with the furnishings, it would interfere with the glam dresser's code and it would bork. And we can't just have an error saying "You cannot edit the house's layout while someone is using the Glamour Dresser", because if there's an FC where people aren't being cordial with one another, they're going to abuse it and not let others edit their house. It's one of those cases where it works on paper, but the game just doesn't support it. And then people get frustrated because they promised something out of fan demand, but couldn't match it.

Or, in the wise words of Yoshida when hearing a fan asking for something actually unreasonable...
NIGHTMEAH...

[Kes13a]

But even that last bit, like... A lot of people forget that the reason we don't have Glam Dressers in housing yet is because it breaks the way housing is designed. If anyone messes with the furnishings, it would interfere with the glam dresser's code and it would bork. And we can't just have an error saying "You cannot edit the house's layout while someone is using the Glamour Dresser", because if there's an FC where people aren't being cordial with one another, they're going to abuse it and not let others edit their house. It's one of those cases where it works on paper, but the game just doesn't support it. And then people get frustrated because they promised something out of fan demand, but couldn't match it.

I am happy they enjoy playing them, really...

exactly. I mean glam dressers in houses are likely something they may have noted to look into when they change how the layout is put together. some things just currently DO NOT WORK TOGETHER. doesnt mean that cant change, and thats fine. but then you get decisions of "well, this works as it stands.. but it could work better" balanced with "everyone and their dog is crying for this new feature" and guess what gets worked on first, it isnt the wonky but working current feature