"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Savage tiers would die so much faster and subs dropped so much quicker without fflogs there to provide metacontent after the fact. If we, of course, assume that in lieu of FFLogs there'd be nothing, speedkilling and parse running communities wouldn't exist; people would have little reason to pug with strangers outside of their inner circle to improve their personal performance in their off time.

Midare has the right of it imo. There's nuance. No tool brings strictly good things as tools are what the community does with them.

Those communities are a fraction of the savage community which is already a fraction of the playerbase.

That community generally isn't part of the PF or casual statics actually keeping savage going long after hardcore groups have gotten their 8 clears and unsubbed until ultimate/next tier.

[Pyro2hell3]

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

I'm not even going to touch the hellish can of worms that comes from a voluntary sample method because that would take forever or more likely just kill everybody here

[SaberMaxwell]

Those communities are a fraction of the savage community which is already a fraction of the playerbase.

That community generally isn't part of the PF or casual statics actually keeping savage going long after hardcore groups have gotten their 8 clears and unsubbed until ultimate/next tier.

The metacontent that I specified is why hardcore groups do more than the 8 kills and unsub. Its why some go for multiple statics, split farms, etc to fulfill goals on FFlogs. To get 100 on parse, rank 1 on speed, rank last on performance, pantsless runs, meet FFLogs challenges which impose rules on how yo clear a fight for special rankings.

None of that would be a thing and nobody would have a reason to clear savage past kill 8, even the casual raiders.

I don't have numbers to back any claims that it isn't a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, hyperbole on your statement of course mine. So sure, we can pretend for the sake of argument that maybe 100 players would leave without fflogs completely. Maybe savage wouldn't be dying content because most people interested are at least geared out fully by week 12, leaving...12-16 more weeks of the tier left that people have no reason to run it.

FFlogs is still, imo, a net boon for providing strong analysis tools for everyone of every level.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The metacontent that I specified is why hardcore groups do more than the 8 kills and unsub. Its why some go for multiple statics, split farms, etc to fulfill goals on FFlogs. To get 100 on parse, rank 1 on speed, rank last on performance, pantsless runs, meet FFLogs challenges which impose rules on how yo clear a fight for special rankings.

None of that would be a thing and nobody would have a reason to clear savage past kill 8, even the casual raiders.

I don't have numbers to back any claims that it isn't a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, hyperbole on your statement of course mine. So sure, we can pretend for the sake of argument that maybe 100 players would leave without fflogs completely. Maybe savage wouldn't be dying content because most people interested are at least geared out fully by week 12, leaving...12-16 more weeks of the tier left that people have no reason to run it.

FFlogs is still, imo, a net boon for providing strong analysis tools for everyone of every level.

Most people interested in savage are not geared by week 12. Most hardcore and maybe midcore groups sure. My group doesn't even tend to clear the tier for 8 weeks, giving another 8 just to get clears. we tend to get min 10 clears and then just see how we feel. thats minimum 18 weeks of the tier for us.

You seem to think only hardcore raiders do savage...


Casual raiders I know don't do parse or speed runs.

[SaberMaxwell]

Most people interested in savage are not geared by week 12. Most hardcore and maybe midcore groups sure. My group doesn't even tend to clear the tier for 8 weeks, giving another 8 just to get clears. we tend to get min 10 clears and then just see how we feel. thats minimum 18 weeks of the tier for us.

You seem to think only hardcore raiders do savage...


Casual raiders I know don't do parse or speed runs.

And you seem to think your anecdote can be extrapolated to "most."

Even in your example though, that's only 6 weeks more than my own example of "most" which I'll concede I can't claim either. Which still leaves a long period of nothing. Not to mention how the hours you put in, whether hardcore or softcore, are roughly the same just spread out over different periods of time.

Again, "for the sake of argument let's agree you're right," FFLogs is still a net benefit on the community.

[Packetdancer]

The only good way to use fflogs is for comparisons against yourself.

I actually disagree; I think it's also very useful to compare yourself to more skilled/optimal players. I have learned a lot about optimization in a given fight by finding people who perform better than I do, then examining the timelines of their fight logs.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I just look at what the optimal rotation is for my class and work around with learning that than worrying about actual numbers

[Rilifane]

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

I'm not even going to touch the hellish can of worms that comes from a voluntary sample method because that would take forever or more likely just kill everybody here

Not true.
The profile still shows the original parse because the profile always shows the historical ranking, meaning the parse of the clear period during which you killed the boss. If you click on the parse then you will see it in the context of the current clear period which will downgrade it in most cases but not nearly to the extend you're suggesting.
My first week clear of p1s was a 76 at the time we cleared and is still shown as such on my profile. If you click on the parse, it's a 36. So it went from barely-purple to mid-green. The 95 from my co heal would have been a 53 in the context of the latest clear period which is aginst people in full BiS. That's a far cry from orange to grey.
And since someone looking up a person will always have to go through their profile unless given the link to a specific kill, the historical ranking is what they will see first.
So no, an orange-parsing first week raider will not be treated like an idiot because their parse got downgraded to blue at most.

I actually disagree; I think it's also very useful to compare yourself to more skilled/optimal players. I have learned a lot about optimization in a given fight by finding people who perform better than I do, then examining the timelines of their fight logs.

Same here.
I learned a lot and got several good ideas just be peeking over the shoulders of better players. How do they solve certain mechanics in terms of cooldowns? How did they deal with stuns/ phase transitions that interrupt the flow of their rotation? How did that BLM managed to get 100% Ley Line uptime? One player can never have the same wealth of ideas on how to solve mechanics than a collective of good players.

[Dzonathan]

I know I'm doing fine and don't need a number chart to tell me that. Running raids (normals) for pieces is always a blast and most groups have a great time clearing, with minimal mess ups to boot. Again, no log needed.

Logs is a big part of why we have these types of threads. And they breed nothing but ire tbh

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

You talk with the group rather than try to single one of them out? We're all adults here