"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

[Saraide]

I'm not 100% sure I buy that. I'm not entirely happy with job balance either, mind you, but I do suspect they have access to (quite a lot of) data we do not... and while they balance jobs around endgame fights, they do also need to take the much-larger casual playerbase into account. They could absolutely be aware of the problems and yet feel those downsides are outweighed by some other factor we're not aware of. For instance, if a job suddenly had its popularity in casual play plummet, even if endgame raiders are happy with the job I have little doubt the devs would still consider that a problem scenario to address.

We can armchair-quarterback their development process all we like -- Twelve know I certainly do enough of it in some threads -- but in the end, we really can't know with absolute certainty what factors went into their decisions.

They certainly have very indepth data on usage statistics, atleast I hope they do. But that doesnt mean we have no data. FFlogs is providing everyone who cares to look with extremely detailed combat data. It's freely available to everyone, even SE could look at it and calculate every potency increase in a vaste variety of situations. They wouldnt even have to admit it either because we expect them to have detailed combat data themselves. Increasing potencies like they did for paladin and warrior has no negative impact on the casual playerbase, it's unrealistic that this is even a possibility.

[Packetdancer]

They certainly have very indepth data on usage statistics, atleast I hope they do. But that doesnt mean we have no data. FFlogs is providing everyone who cares to look with extremely detailed combat data. It's freely available to everyone, even SE could look at it and calculate every potency increase in a vaste variety of situations. They wouldnt even have to admit it either because we expect them to have detailed combat data themselves. Increasing potencies like they did for paladin and warrior has no negative impact on the casual playerbase, it's unrealistic that this is even a possibility.

I would argue that the content of fflogs skews heavily towards a particular subset of the playerbase. While sometimes you'll get casual content thrown on there for purposes of XIVAnalysis (or just because someone was lazy and uploaded an entire evening's worth of logs rather than specific encounters), the vast majority of those logs are going to represent Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate content.

Yes, we can certainly draw conclusions from FFLogs' data, but I'm not sure we can draw conclusions which are applicable to the entire playerbase as opposed to the small subset that run savage. I would assume that SQEX has far more complete data than we do in that respect.

This isn't to say that there is something in that data that explains why they're fixated on the current job balance, mind you. I'm just saying there very well could be, and we would not know. So the fact that they aren't changing job balance doesn't necessarily mean they're ignorant of its state.

[Saraide]

I would argue that the content of fflogs skews heavily towards a particular subset of the playerbase. While sometimes you'll get casual content thrown on there for purposes of XIVAnalysis (or just because someone was lazy and uploaded an entire evening's worth of logs rather than specific encounters), the vast majority of those logs are going to represent Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate content.

Yes, we can certainly draw conclusions from FFLogs' data, but I'm not sure we can draw conclusions which are applicable to the entire playerbase as opposed to the small subset that run savage. I would assume that SQEX has far more complete data than we do in that respect.

This isn't to say that there is something in that data that explains why they're fixated on the current job balance, mind you. I'm just saying there very well could be, and we would not know. So the fact that they aren't changing job balance doesn't necessarily mean they're ignorant of its state.

Well yes, of course FFlogs represents mostly extreme, savage and ultimate content. That's where job balancing is relevant. SE has long abandoned all notions of keeping job balance in normal content. Otherwise Warrior's self healing would have been nerfed ages ago. Buffs like the recent ones to warrior and paladin can not have a negative impact on the casual playerbase. It was just potency increases, so the jobs play exactly the same. They just wont be locked out of savage PFs anymore.

[xbahax92]

There are servers on JP with a savage tier clear rate exceeding 50% in some tiers. P5S was actually the fight with the most clears logged week 1, ever. People really need to stop trying to frame Savage as niche content, because it isn't and hasn't been for a very long time.

If casual players aren't playing this content, they should probably stop participating in a discussion around something that doesn't impact them then.

Why is it entitlement to expect the game to maintain similar tuning standards? Why is it entitlement to expect to be able to play my main job while raiding? This is the same community that constantly spins the "Anyone can clear any content uwu" and "Every job is viable uwu" bs as some kind of weird virtue signal about how perfect and inclusive the game is, but the moment the game has serious balance issues we're suddenly not allowed to care about it lol.

Stop trying to use 'entitlement' nonsensically to dismiss people you don't agree with, especially on a topic that isn't even relevant to your own experience in game.

What the... I didnt event mention all that stuff, stop interpreting stuff?!

First of all, I started with a question, thanks for answering. Job balancing is done with and around savage and ultimate. Almost all skills and abilities are just done for that one content. And yet the majority of the playerbase is still casual. "Job balancing" or rather "simplifying" hurts the casual content as much. Jobs feel and play literally the same, there is barely any difference between each role. And I highly doubt its because of the "gap" between good and bad players. It's just easier for the dev team to "balance" jobs when they all do and perform the same thing. Even if all raiders quit the game, your point wont hold up. It affects everyone.

Also, the entitlement part was for people being butthurt about a silly statement done by yoshida/devs. It seems so silly to me. As if there are no other important issues...

[IkaraGreydancer]

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren't fixated on numbers

[Gararr]

I\\'ll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren\\'t fixated on numbers

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

[LittleImp]

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

I used to feel FFLogs was beneficial, but have become more and more jaded recently by my interactions with certain aspects of the high-end community. Ideas of player skill and worth have become too heavily associated with parse percentiles. Players are pressured into this misguided value system, and some of the side effects have been.. really unpleasant.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I used to feel FFLogs was beneficial, but have become more and more jaded recently by my interactions with certain aspects of the high-end community. Ideas of player skill and worth have become too heavily associated with parse percentiles. Players are pressured into this misguided value system, and some of the side effects have been.. really unpleasant.

The only good way to use fflogs is for comparisons against yourself.

There will always bee a bottom 1%. You could have the difference bettwen the top 1% and bottom 1% be 100 dps, and there would still be gray parses.

Sometimes the difference between getting blue and getting orange is only a few hundred dps.

People only focus on the % and color and don't understand meanings. It's why I hate the score graphs and such people always post.

[Packetdancer]

The only good way to use fflogs is for comparisons against yourself.

I actually disagree; I think it's also very useful to compare yourself to more skilled/optimal players. I have learned a lot about optimization in a given fight by finding people who perform better than I do, then examining the timelines of their fight logs.

[ty_taurus]

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren't fixated on numbers

Logs are only used for Savage level content because, as this most recent tier has shown, you kind of need to know how your party is overall matching up to the content for early clears. Sure I guess Extremes too to an extent, but the DPS checks in Extreme are very lax. It's not like people are tracking logs on your 12th run of the fell court of Troia.