"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The metacontent that I specified is why hardcore groups do more than the 8 kills and unsub. Its why some go for multiple statics, split farms, etc to fulfill goals on FFlogs. To get 100 on parse, rank 1 on speed, rank last on performance, pantsless runs, meet FFLogs challenges which impose rules on how yo clear a fight for special rankings.

None of that would be a thing and nobody would have a reason to clear savage past kill 8, even the casual raiders.

I don't have numbers to back any claims that it isn't a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, hyperbole on your statement of course mine. So sure, we can pretend for the sake of argument that maybe 100 players would leave without fflogs completely. Maybe savage wouldn't be dying content because most people interested are at least geared out fully by week 12, leaving...12-16 more weeks of the tier left that people have no reason to run it.

FFlogs is still, imo, a net boon for providing strong analysis tools for everyone of every level.

Most people interested in savage are not geared by week 12. Most hardcore and maybe midcore groups sure. My group doesn't even tend to clear the tier for 8 weeks, giving another 8 just to get clears. we tend to get min 10 clears and then just see how we feel. thats minimum 18 weeks of the tier for us.

You seem to think only hardcore raiders do savage...


Casual raiders I know don't do parse or speed runs.

[SaberMaxwell]

Most people interested in savage are not geared by week 12. Most hardcore and maybe midcore groups sure. My group doesn't even tend to clear the tier for 8 weeks, giving another 8 just to get clears. we tend to get min 10 clears and then just see how we feel. thats minimum 18 weeks of the tier for us.

You seem to think only hardcore raiders do savage...


Casual raiders I know don't do parse or speed runs.

And you seem to think your anecdote can be extrapolated to "most."

Even in your example though, that's only 6 weeks more than my own example of "most" which I'll concede I can't claim either. Which still leaves a long period of nothing. Not to mention how the hours you put in, whether hardcore or softcore, are roughly the same just spread out over different periods of time.

Again, "for the sake of argument let's agree you're right," FFLogs is still a net benefit on the community.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I just look at what the optimal rotation is for my class and work around with learning that than worrying about actual numbers

[Atelier-Bagur]

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

You talk with the group rather than try to single one of them out? We're all adults here

[Dzonathan]

You talk with the group rather than try to single one of them out? We're all adults here

It's mature and professional to be able to quickly identify the issue through pragmatic measurements.
Or are you going to tell me you're gonna spend 30 minutes between each pull and ask if they did their rotation right without any means to verify if they tell the truth?

[Atelier-Bagur]

It's mature and professional to be able to quickly identify the issue through pragmatic measurements.
Or are you going to tell me you're gonna spend 30 minutes between each pull and ask if they did their rotation right without any means to verify if they tell the truth?

Well the thing with my situation at least is that I do savage raids with friends so we all know each other and own up to our mistakes during prog attempts. Why try to even hide yourself for not performing well during the fight.

I think the same should be done with statics.

[Dzonathan]

Why try to even hide yourself for not performing well during the fight.
I think the same should be done with statics.

Because you can not verify if someone is saying the truth or not without using 3rd party tools.
All you have is someone's word for it.

[Rilifane]

The problem with feelycrafty-"I'm sure I did my rotation right, yes" is that it can be pretty far off the mark.
You'd be surprised by how many people feel confident that they're doing well but end up sitting at 80% uptime, misaligning cooldowns, loosing usages, overcapping resources etc. It's easy to feel like you're doing well if there is no clear evidence for the contrary.
FFlogs and xiva provide hard facts. No feelycraft and "I think I do/ don't", just clear numbers and the ability to recreate the fight and what went wrong at which point.
In the same vein, there are many people that feel like they didn't do well but end up with green ticks everywhere, barely if any rotational mistakes etc.

You cannot recreate a 10min+ fight accurately by memory. You will have made mistakes you didn't notice, how are you going to admit something you didn't even notice? These tools can, they are more accurate and reliable than any feeling and memory, even the collective memory of 8 people. They are efficient and pragmatic and if you want to identify issues as fairly as possible, they're far superior than a "Whups, I think that was on me" or "I think I messed up my burst". As commendable as admitting to obvious mistakes like running into an aoe and dying is, there is more to performing well than just not dying and many mistakes are easy to overlook.

[Atelier-Bagur]

The problem with feelycrafty-"I'm sure I did my rotation right, yes" is that it can be pretty far off the mark.
You'd be surprised by how many people feel confident that they're doing well but end up sitting at 80% uptime, misaligning cooldowns, loosing usages, overcapping resources etc. It's easy to feel like you're doing well if there is no clear evidence for the contrary.
FFlogs and xiva provide hard facts. No feelycraft and "I think I do/ don't", just clear numbers and the ability to recreate the fight and what went wrong at which point.
In the same vein, there are many people that feel like they didn't do well but end up with green ticks everywhere, barely if any rotational mistakes etc.

You cannot recreate a 10min+ fight accurately by memory. You will have made mistakes you didn't notice, how are you going to admit something you didn't even notice? These tools can, they are more accurate and reliable than any feeling and memory, even the collective memory of 8 people. They are efficient and pragmatic and if you want to identify issues as fairly as possible, they're far superior than a "Whups, I think that was on me" or "I think I messed up my burst". As commendable as admitting to obvious mistakes like running into an aoe and dying is, there is more to performing well than just not dying and many mistakes are easy to overlook.

Imo most of the fight is just everyone getting the pattern down rather than the 1 percent everyone seems to be raising their roofs over. FFXIV's combat is so much like a dance that I feel people have disillusioned themselves over the number meta which probably explains why the devs make many of the jobs so homogenized over burst windows since that's how the game's mechanics tend to favor over variability in damage.

You can easily tell in a group when you're not going to clear enrage based on the boss's HP bar over whatever phase it's at.

If FFXIV were truly about the number game like in other MMOs you'd see it more in its official UI and design throughout the entire fight rather than the last minute enrage.

At least this is just my take as a somewhat casual savage raider :u

[Rilifane]

Imo most of the fight is just everyone getting the pattern down rather than the 1 percent everyone seems to be raising their roofs over. FFXIV's combat is so much like a dance that I feel people have disillusioned themselves over the number meta which probably explains why the devs make many of the jobs so homogenized over burst windows since that's how the game's mechanics tend to favor over variability in damage.

You can easily tell in a group when you're not going to clear enrage based on the boss's HP bar over whatever phase it's at.

If FFXIV were truly about the number game like in other MMOs you'd see it more in its official UI and design throughout the entire fight rather than the last minute enrage.

At least this is just my take as a somewhat casual savage raider :u

Performance includes more than just learning the dance as I said. That is the minimum required to clear because if these 8 people don't learn the mechanics, they'll constantly nuke each other and won't come even near a clear.

And knowing you'll wipe to enrage still doesn't give you information about why you will wipe to it - and that was the question. If you have 20 deaths, it's easy. Just die less.
But what if you just had one death and 2 damage downs but are 10% off?
There's obviously more issues than a single death and 2 damage downs as avoiding them doesn't suddenly delete 10% boss HP. What then? Are you going to ask everyone if they did their rotation correctly, if they used their cooldowns on cooldown, if they kept uptime etc? How informative is a "Yes" or a "I think I did" or a "Could probably do better"? How do you know it's honest or comes from the right people? How do you know the player saying they could probably do better and have messed up a few things is really the problem? How do you know it's not the person that said "Yup, I kept everything on cooldown and kept uptime, I followed the balance rotation"?
It could very well be that one player simply has a different standard for "messing up" than someone else because in a group of 8 people, you will most likely have 8 different standards for "doing well" and "messed it up".
You have no data to check the validity of any of their claims.

Don't try to spin this into a "obessing over 1%" thing when that's not the case. This isn't about "But you're supposed to trust the people in your static, if not can't trust them you gotta find a new one", trust issues either, it's simply about facts vs feelycraft.
The question was how you are going to accurately determine where issues are without any data whatsoever except feelycraft and boss HP at certain mechanics. This isn't about p8s specifically but this claim that you don't need a 3rd party tool to accurately identify issues when wiping to enrage or knowing you're doing well.
The game doesn't give you any valid feedback about your performance; it's that simple.
No, hitting a dummy for 3min and getting a pat on the back for killing it isn't valid feedback either. It's the bare minimum and tells you nothing about how someone performs in the fight while doing mechanics.