"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

[Dzonathan]

You talk with the group rather than try to single one of them out? We're all adults here

It's mature and professional to be able to quickly identify the issue through pragmatic measurements.
Or are you going to tell me you're gonna spend 30 minutes between each pull and ask if they did their rotation right without any means to verify if they tell the truth?

[Atelier-Bagur]

It's mature and professional to be able to quickly identify the issue through pragmatic measurements.
Or are you going to tell me you're gonna spend 30 minutes between each pull and ask if they did their rotation right without any means to verify if they tell the truth?

Well the thing with my situation at least is that I do savage raids with friends so we all know each other and own up to our mistakes during prog attempts. Why try to even hide yourself for not performing well during the fight.

I think the same should be done with statics.

[Dzonathan]

Why try to even hide yourself for not performing well during the fight.
I think the same should be done with statics.

Because you can not verify if someone is saying the truth or not without using 3rd party tools.
All you have is someone's word for it.

[Rilifane]

The problem with feelycrafty-"I'm sure I did my rotation right, yes" is that it can be pretty far off the mark.
You'd be surprised by how many people feel confident that they're doing well but end up sitting at 80% uptime, misaligning cooldowns, loosing usages, overcapping resources etc. It's easy to feel like you're doing well if there is no clear evidence for the contrary.
FFlogs and xiva provide hard facts. No feelycraft and "I think I do/ don't", just clear numbers and the ability to recreate the fight and what went wrong at which point.
In the same vein, there are many people that feel like they didn't do well but end up with green ticks everywhere, barely if any rotational mistakes etc.

You cannot recreate a 10min+ fight accurately by memory. You will have made mistakes you didn't notice, how are you going to admit something you didn't even notice? These tools can, they are more accurate and reliable than any feeling and memory, even the collective memory of 8 people. They are efficient and pragmatic and if you want to identify issues as fairly as possible, they're far superior than a "Whups, I think that was on me" or "I think I messed up my burst". As commendable as admitting to obvious mistakes like running into an aoe and dying is, there is more to performing well than just not dying and many mistakes are easy to overlook.

[Liam_Harper]

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

Logs don't work that way. You get your orange, it gets locked on your profile as a historical percentile.

Besides, no static with a shred of common sense cares if you have greys on your profile. The obsession over percentile number and fear that you'll be seen as "bad" (or judging others over it) if it isn't orange is mostly a casual player thing. Good players just use it to set personal goals and keep raids interesting on reclears. Decent statics are looking for your potential, your uptime and if you're playing your job correctly.

[Saraide]

I would argue that the content of fflogs skews heavily towards a particular subset of the playerbase. While sometimes you'll get casual content thrown on there for purposes of XIVAnalysis (or just because someone was lazy and uploaded an entire evening's worth of logs rather than specific encounters), the vast majority of those logs are going to represent Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate content.

Yes, we can certainly draw conclusions from FFLogs' data, but I'm not sure we can draw conclusions which are applicable to the entire playerbase as opposed to the small subset that run savage. I would assume that SQEX has far more complete data than we do in that respect.

This isn't to say that there is something in that data that explains why they're fixated on the current job balance, mind you. I'm just saying there very well could be, and we would not know. So the fact that they aren't changing job balance doesn't necessarily mean they're ignorant of its state.

Well yes, of course FFlogs represents mostly extreme, savage and ultimate content. That's where job balancing is relevant. SE has long abandoned all notions of keeping job balance in normal content. Otherwise Warrior's self healing would have been nerfed ages ago. Buffs like the recent ones to warrior and paladin can not have a negative impact on the casual playerbase. It was just potency increases, so the jobs play exactly the same. They just wont be locked out of savage PFs anymore.

[Atelier-Bagur]

The problem with feelycrafty-"I'm sure I did my rotation right, yes" is that it can be pretty far off the mark.
You'd be surprised by how many people feel confident that they're doing well but end up sitting at 80% uptime, misaligning cooldowns, loosing usages, overcapping resources etc. It's easy to feel like you're doing well if there is no clear evidence for the contrary.
FFlogs and xiva provide hard facts. No feelycraft and "I think I do/ don't", just clear numbers and the ability to recreate the fight and what went wrong at which point.
In the same vein, there are many people that feel like they didn't do well but end up with green ticks everywhere, barely if any rotational mistakes etc.

You cannot recreate a 10min+ fight accurately by memory. You will have made mistakes you didn't notice, how are you going to admit something you didn't even notice? These tools can, they are more accurate and reliable than any feeling and memory, even the collective memory of 8 people. They are efficient and pragmatic and if you want to identify issues as fairly as possible, they're far superior than a "Whups, I think that was on me" or "I think I messed up my burst". As commendable as admitting to obvious mistakes like running into an aoe and dying is, there is more to performing well than just not dying and many mistakes are easy to overlook.

Imo most of the fight is just everyone getting the pattern down rather than the 1 percent everyone seems to be raising their roofs over. FFXIV's combat is so much like a dance that I feel people have disillusioned themselves over the number meta which probably explains why the devs make many of the jobs so homogenized over burst windows since that's how the game's mechanics tend to favor over variability in damage.

You can easily tell in a group when you're not going to clear enrage based on the boss's HP bar over whatever phase it's at.

If FFXIV were truly about the number game like in other MMOs you'd see it more in its official UI and design throughout the entire fight rather than the last minute enrage.

At least this is just my take as a somewhat casual savage raider :u

[IkaraGreydancer]

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

I would watch what others are doing and bring that up to em if excessive wipes are happening. It's not hard to tell who is and isn't doing what needed. But again I've never needed to do this tbf.

[Rilifane]

Imo most of the fight is just everyone getting the pattern down rather than the 1 percent everyone seems to be raising their roofs over. FFXIV's combat is so much like a dance that I feel people have disillusioned themselves over the number meta which probably explains why the devs make many of the jobs so homogenized over burst windows since that's how the game's mechanics tend to favor over variability in damage.

You can easily tell in a group when you're not going to clear enrage based on the boss's HP bar over whatever phase it's at.

If FFXIV were truly about the number game like in other MMOs you'd see it more in its official UI and design throughout the entire fight rather than the last minute enrage.

At least this is just my take as a somewhat casual savage raider :u

Performance includes more than just learning the dance as I said. That is the minimum required to clear because if these 8 people don't learn the mechanics, they'll constantly nuke each other and won't come even near a clear.

And knowing you'll wipe to enrage still doesn't give you information about why you will wipe to it - and that was the question. If you have 20 deaths, it's easy. Just die less.
But what if you just had one death and 2 damage downs but are 10% off?
There's obviously more issues than a single death and 2 damage downs as avoiding them doesn't suddenly delete 10% boss HP. What then? Are you going to ask everyone if they did their rotation correctly, if they used their cooldowns on cooldown, if they kept uptime etc? How informative is a "Yes" or a "I think I did" or a "Could probably do better"? How do you know it's honest or comes from the right people? How do you know the player saying they could probably do better and have messed up a few things is really the problem? How do you know it's not the person that said "Yup, I kept everything on cooldown and kept uptime, I followed the balance rotation"?
It could very well be that one player simply has a different standard for "messing up" than someone else because in a group of 8 people, you will most likely have 8 different standards for "doing well" and "messed it up".
You have no data to check the validity of any of their claims.

Don't try to spin this into a "obessing over 1%" thing when that's not the case. This isn't about "But you're supposed to trust the people in your static, if not can't trust them you gotta find a new one", trust issues either, it's simply about facts vs feelycraft.
The question was how you are going to accurately determine where issues are without any data whatsoever except feelycraft and boss HP at certain mechanics. This isn't about p8s specifically but this claim that you don't need a 3rd party tool to accurately identify issues when wiping to enrage or knowing you're doing well.
The game doesn't give you any valid feedback about your performance; it's that simple.
No, hitting a dummy for 3min and getting a pat on the back for killing it isn't valid feedback either. It's the bare minimum and tells you nothing about how someone performs in the fight while doing mechanics.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Performance includes more than just learning the dance as I said. That is the minimum required to clear because if these 8 people don't learn the mechanics, they'll constantly nuke each other and won't come even near a clear.

And knowing you'll wipe to enrage still doesn't give you information about why you will wipe to it - and that was the question. If you have 20 deaths, it's easy. Just die less.
But what if you just had one death and 2 damage downs but are 10% off?
There's obviously more issues than a single death and 2 damage downs as avoiding them doesn't suddenly delete 10% boss HP. What then? Are you going to ask everyone if they did their rotation correctly, if they used their cooldowns on cooldown, if they kept uptime etc? How informative is a "Yes" or a "I think I did" or a "Could probably do better"? How do you know it's honest or comes from the right people? How do you know the player saying they could probably do better and have messed up a few things is really the problem? How do you know it's not the person that said "Yup, I kept everything on cooldown and kept uptime, I followed the balance rotation"?
It could very well be that one player simply has a different standard for "messing up" than someone else because in a group of 8 people, you will most likely have 8 different standards for "doing well" and "messed it up".
You have no data to check the validity of any of their claims.

Don't try to spin this into a "obessing over 1%" thing when that's not the case. This isn't about "But you're supposed to trust the people in your static, if not can't trust them you gotta find a new one", trust issues either, it's simply about facts vs feelycraft.
The question was how you are going to accurately determine where issues are without any data whatsoever except feelycraft and boss HP at certain mechanics. This isn't about p8s specifically but this claim that you don't need a 3rd party tool to accurately identify issues when wiping to enrage or knowing you're doing well.
The game doesn't give you any valid feedback about your performance; it's that simple.
No, hitting a dummy for 3min and getting a pat on the back for killing it isn't valid feedback either. It's the bare minimum and tells you nothing about how someone performs in the fight while doing mechanics.

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.