What's wrong with Ranged Physical identity?

[Risvertasashi]

I do think phys. ranged lost a chunk of its identity when the party resource buffs went away. But there is still the mitigation, the high personal damage of MCH, and the damage buffs of BRD and DNC.

I think a foundational problem of the role, however... was, bluntly, the introduction of DNC. In particular, the introduction of DNC without a distinct niche.

So now we are in this situation where we have 2 buffers competing to be the better buffer. And then MCH, although it outdamages all other phys ranged and all casters except BLM on personal damage, doesn't do so well on raid damage - which is what the current storm of complaints is about. People want MCH to have not just the high personal damage but high raid damage as well.

But doing so will put either DNC or BRD in a very bad spot. They already have bad personal damage, but if their raid damage falls behind too, now you'll have a new job no one wants (I mean this is exactly what happened to BRD last expac. Yes, the "MCH has been terrible for 4 years" people are full of ship/revising history).

[Valence]

I do think phys. ranged lost a chunk of its identity when the party resource buffs went away. But there is still the mitigation, the high personal damage of MCH, and the damage buffs of BRD and DNC.

I think a foundational problem of the role, however... was, bluntly, the introduction of DNC. In particular, the introduction of DNC without a distinct niche.

So now we are in this situation where we have 2 buffers competing to be the better buffer. And then MCH, although it outdamages all other phys ranged and all casters except BLM on personal damage, doesn't do so well on raid damage - which is what the current storm of complaints is about. People want MCH to have not just the high personal damage but high raid damage as well.

But doing so will put either DNC or BRD in a very bad spot. They already have bad personal damage, but if their raid damage falls behind too, now you'll have a new job no one wants (I mean this is exactly what happened to BRD last expac. Yes, the "MCH has been terrible for 4 years" people are full of ship/revising history).

Everybody and their moms have mitigation now. RDM provides more than us. I like that the game has more of it, but it's far from a defining feature of rPhys anymore. Quite the opposite in fact, we're barely average with it: tanks and healers do it better now, and some other dps as well.

I don't find DNC and BRD competing with each other at all. They both are big raid buffers, especially since EW introduced for BRD what it lacked in SHB (and still lacks at lvl80), which is raid buffs, by adding Radiant Finale, and what it introduced for DNC, mostly damaging abilities (Tilana, Starfall Dance etc). DNC, in fact, has the exact same niche as BRD right now, which it didn't in ShB when they removed a lot of buffs from BRD and people actually complained. They now both offer a very similar experience, similar party role with buffs, and similar job mechanics and bursts, although all of this in a different flavor, and I find this actually successful, unlike for poor MCH on the side.

All melees except SAM also buff, albeit in a lower fashion, and they don't compete more with each other, they just offer different flavors of it. I find the argument a bit weird to be honest.

MCH has been terrible for 1 year now (in EW), when it comes to raid performance. It's been ok in ShB within its role. But my problem is with identity, less with balance, and MCH has literally none. If you give me the argument that its selfish nature is part of its identity, then please allow me laugh a bit first, then reply that within the rPhys identity, it has literally none, and even contradicts what little is left of the role. New MCH has been an eyesore on literally every level since its rework, and it seems nobody knows at SE whatever they want of the job anymore.

[Risvertasashi]

I don't find DNC and BRD competing with each other at all.

But my problem is with identity, less with balance, and MCH has literally none.

You really don't see the irony here? lol.

We've been in this exact same spot, but with brd or dnc taking their turns on the "worst job" carousel instead. (And they didn't even have the high personal DPS that MCH does).

If you give me the argument that its selfish nature is part of its identity, then please allow me laugh a bit first, then reply that within the rPhys identity, it has literally none, and even contradicts what little is left of the role.

Laugh all you like, that's how SE tends to balance. It's why BLM tends to be the best within casters. And why SAM and MNK tend to be the best within melees.

But your fundamental complaint isn't so different from mine. We both agree there are identity issues, at least.

[JungoBungo]

snip

MCH players don't want their rDPS to be so high it effectively makes BRD or DNC obsolete. I'm pretty sure people just want it to be more tightly tuned so that its overall damage can somewhat be more on par with the continually increasing gains BRD and DNC will get from both gear and the performance of their party or partners, which has effectively been the case for years to the point MCH is almost never preferred to bring in the only context in which any of this balance matters. To be honest, I am perfectly fine with the idea that DNC and BRD perform how they do in the best of parties, but it does not make sense for MCH to be how it is with how things have been tuned for a long while. I do understand that this is a delicate thing to get right, but doing anything by now is better than doing nothing.

MCH has very little to help itself or the party buff-wise, has what is effectively a role action for mitigation, and...nothing else. I would also argue that outside of getting to move while doing its rotation (which doesn't matter in any more difficult content since you need to be in particular places at particular times no matter your role, AND melee uptime is a joke) that it actually has some of the worst mobility in the game. All that is on top of doing the least damage in the game at any level where it matters. Is it somehow supposed to be surprising people are becoming more and more vocal about this? Is it revisionist history to point out a consistent trend for years that's now becoming even more extremely apparent as a job goes almost entirely ignored except for insistence from Yoshi P that it's fine?

Anyway, I would agree that this is very much not just a MCH issue and is something that will have to be addressed role-wide for phys ranged as far as a re-examination of both their identities and their numbers. I know they can't fix this mess so quickly as people would like, but feedback has been there for quite a while, and them dropping the ball repeatedly on this is becoming increasingly more disappointing.