What's wrong with Ranged Physical identity?

[Valence]

I have been a ranged physical player for a lot of years, raiding at high level on various jobs, notably machinist and bard, and I have to admit that since Shadowbringers, the role has gotten so stripped of its identity and actual party role that I find it depressing, thinking about all what we lost.

Our lower damage output used to be less of an issue for the very reason that we were actual supports back then, needed in every competent raid for party resource management, like MP and TP regeneration, and we also offered the strongest party mitigation utilities (like old Troubadour).

In ShB every party resource management was scrapped out of the game, pure and simple. No more MP management other than at the individual level. No more mana song, no more foe's requiem raid buff that actually used MP (that was a creative design, why was it trashed??).

Other roles also started to see appear a lot of mitigation tools of their own (which isn't a bad thing, don't get me wrong, it's good to have plenty so fights can actually be designed around those more, and require more from parties to mitigate). The problem is, rPhys roles didn't. Technically today, a Red Mage brings more party mitigation than any rPhys job besides Dancer: Troubadour/Tactician/Samba are not even comparable to Magick Barrier AND Addle combined. They are not even comparable to everything that every tank brings (their party wide(s) AND reprisal). Even healers have comparable tools now.

Again, I actually like all those mitigation tools. But rPhys has lost its unique identity when it comes to this as well. We're now left at the bottom of the raid DPS ladder by quite a margin (remember in early ShB when it was so dire that a triple melee comp was actually performing better by offsetting the party bonus completely?), and we don't even have anything else left for us to take comfort in: no more party resource management, and everybody and their mothers bringing similar or better raid wide mitigation.

So, I ask the dev team, if they ever read, what are we still good for? The biggest party raid buffs in the game, which is true except for machinist? Why would it still matter, since even with those we still bring less total damage from ourselves and what we bring to the party anyway?

What do you intend to do for 7.0?

[Risvertasashi]

I do think phys. ranged lost a chunk of its identity when the party resource buffs went away. But there is still the mitigation, the high personal damage of MCH, and the damage buffs of BRD and DNC.

I think a foundational problem of the role, however... was, bluntly, the introduction of DNC. In particular, the introduction of DNC without a distinct niche.

So now we are in this situation where we have 2 buffers competing to be the better buffer. And then MCH, although it outdamages all other phys ranged and all casters except BLM on personal damage, doesn't do so well on raid damage - which is what the current storm of complaints is about. People want MCH to have not just the high personal damage but high raid damage as well.

But doing so will put either DNC or BRD in a very bad spot. They already have bad personal damage, but if their raid damage falls behind too, now you'll have a new job no one wants (I mean this is exactly what happened to BRD last expac. Yes, the "MCH has been terrible for 4 years" people are full of ship/revising history).

[Valence]

I do think phys. ranged lost a chunk of its identity when the party resource buffs went away. But there is still the mitigation, the high personal damage of MCH, and the damage buffs of BRD and DNC.

I think a foundational problem of the role, however... was, bluntly, the introduction of DNC. In particular, the introduction of DNC without a distinct niche.

So now we are in this situation where we have 2 buffers competing to be the better buffer. And then MCH, although it outdamages all other phys ranged and all casters except BLM on personal damage, doesn't do so well on raid damage - which is what the current storm of complaints is about. People want MCH to have not just the high personal damage but high raid damage as well.

But doing so will put either DNC or BRD in a very bad spot. They already have bad personal damage, but if their raid damage falls behind too, now you'll have a new job no one wants (I mean this is exactly what happened to BRD last expac. Yes, the "MCH has been terrible for 4 years" people are full of ship/revising history).

Everybody and their moms have mitigation now. RDM provides more than us. I like that the game has more of it, but it's far from a defining feature of rPhys anymore. Quite the opposite in fact, we're barely average with it: tanks and healers do it better now, and some other dps as well.

I don't find DNC and BRD competing with each other at all. They both are big raid buffers, especially since EW introduced for BRD what it lacked in SHB (and still lacks at lvl80), which is raid buffs, by adding Radiant Finale, and what it introduced for DNC, mostly damaging abilities (Tilana, Starfall Dance etc). DNC, in fact, has the exact same niche as BRD right now, which it didn't in ShB when they removed a lot of buffs from BRD and people actually complained. They now both offer a very similar experience, similar party role with buffs, and similar job mechanics and bursts, although all of this in a different flavor, and I find this actually successful, unlike for poor MCH on the side.

All melees except SAM also buff, albeit in a lower fashion, and they don't compete more with each other, they just offer different flavors of it. I find the argument a bit weird to be honest.

MCH has been terrible for 1 year now (in EW), when it comes to raid performance. It's been ok in ShB within its role. But my problem is with identity, less with balance, and MCH has literally none. If you give me the argument that its selfish nature is part of its identity, then please allow me laugh a bit first, then reply that within the rPhys identity, it has literally none, and even contradicts what little is left of the role. New MCH has been an eyesore on literally every level since its rework, and it seems nobody knows at SE whatever they want of the job anymore.

[Risvertasashi]

I don't find DNC and BRD competing with each other at all.

But my problem is with identity, less with balance, and MCH has literally none.

You really don't see the irony here? lol.

We've been in this exact same spot, but with brd or dnc taking their turns on the "worst job" carousel instead. (And they didn't even have the high personal DPS that MCH does).

If you give me the argument that its selfish nature is part of its identity, then please allow me laugh a bit first, then reply that within the rPhys identity, it has literally none, and even contradicts what little is left of the role.

Laugh all you like, that's how SE tends to balance. It's why BLM tends to be the best within casters. And why SAM and MNK tend to be the best within melees.

But your fundamental complaint isn't so different from mine. We both agree there are identity issues, at least.

[JungoBungo]

snip

MCH players don't want their rDPS to be so high it effectively makes BRD or DNC obsolete. I'm pretty sure people just want it to be more tightly tuned so that its overall damage can somewhat be more on par with the continually increasing gains BRD and DNC will get from both gear and the performance of their party or partners, which has effectively been the case for years to the point MCH is almost never preferred to bring in the only context in which any of this balance matters. To be honest, I am perfectly fine with the idea that DNC and BRD perform how they do in the best of parties, but it does not make sense for MCH to be how it is with how things have been tuned for a long while. I do understand that this is a delicate thing to get right, but doing anything by now is better than doing nothing.

MCH has very little to help itself or the party buff-wise, has what is effectively a role action for mitigation, and...nothing else. I would also argue that outside of getting to move while doing its rotation (which doesn't matter in any more difficult content since you need to be in particular places at particular times no matter your role, AND melee uptime is a joke) that it actually has some of the worst mobility in the game. All that is on top of doing the least damage in the game at any level where it matters. Is it somehow supposed to be surprising people are becoming more and more vocal about this? Is it revisionist history to point out a consistent trend for years that's now becoming even more extremely apparent as a job goes almost entirely ignored except for insistence from Yoshi P that it's fine?

Anyway, I would agree that this is very much not just a MCH issue and is something that will have to be addressed role-wide for phys ranged as far as a re-examination of both their identities and their numbers. I know they can't fix this mess so quickly as people would like, but feedback has been there for quite a while, and them dropping the ball repeatedly on this is becoming increasingly more disappointing.

[PretzelBear]

Our identity is to be a 1% party composition buff. In the announcement today the development team showed they clearly think that's fine and have no intention to do anything about this, if you really want to see changes to physical ranged then we all need to collectively quit playing the role and tell them clearly on the forums why we're quitting it. Feedback isn't enough because they read it and decided we're wrong, vote with your in-game job choice and tell others.

[Valence]

No, I'm afraid I don't see the irony here? Or do you think that all melees but SAM compete with each other on identity? They're all dps, and they all have a small raid buff. I explained why I think they don't, but feel free not to read what I wrote, or not believing it...

[Risvertasashi]

The irony is that this argument has been going on for years and years, just with a different fill in the blank - instead of machinist, it was bard. Or dancer.

After all, if you think this MCH situation is bad - why would you bring a job that has both terrible personal damage, but then the buffs don't even make up for it vs machinist? or vs (insert bard or dancer, whichever isn't the "worst" at the moment). I'd still trace it back to identity issues, but bard and dancer are not above it all, not even slightly. Though if you only play MCH and only become aware of the issues when MCH isn't favored... Well, so it goes.

Anyways. SE probably will cave to pressure eventually and buff MCH. Then we're back in the same situation as above, as we were before endwalker. So the carousel keeps on turning ~

[Valence]

From HW to SB, it was simple.
You support the raid, you're a parangon of support, you get cool mitigation tools, you recharges others battery, every melee job loved you, every caster job loved you.
You provide rDPS and... What's that, out of stamina? Worry not, my boys, I will shower you with TP and MP.

Then ShB happened
You are a melee DPS but you have 1 role action disguised as an ability. It's a 180s mitigation, you are useless to the party and deal low damage.
But don't worry, if you're in the team you bring 1% main stats to the group! Is it because of something you do? No, it's just because Papa Yoshida told us to bring you along.

One patch later the mitigation went to 120s.

Then EW happened
All ranged barely got anything, DNC somehow got a reworked Improvisation.
BRD got coda and must press Apex arrow twice.
DNC got its melee proc removed and replaced with new buttons, must also press Technical step twice.
MCH got a boring chain saw and a cool cutscene involving Quintus.

All ranged got a trait that changes Tacticians/Troubadour/Samba cooldown to 90s.

Between 5.0 and 6.2, ranged used to feel like melee DPS but with 22 extra yalms of range.
Since 6.2, melees feels like ranged but without the tax.

Pretty much, although i'm still crossing my fingers for BRD and DNC that at least havent melee-ified with a bland basic combo.... yet.

[WiccaP]

Is mch a garbage job... no, I wouldn't main it if it was. But it is objectively the job that is the worst position in utility, performance, etc and has been for quite sometime. Some people don't see a problem with the job, but from what I've seen about 90% of the player base on forums and social media agree that the job is not where it should be comparitively to the others. It has issues that have been ongoing since hw/sb that have been consistently ignored by devs. The blame has been put onto player skill, players connections and equipment. But in my opinion, if such a large number of players are experiencing the same issue. It's not the player but the way the job is designed.