Fight Designs & Class Balancement - Why everything is wrong and favors Melee Fantasy

[Lyth]

I'm not really sure why dps jobs are balanced on the basis of sub-role rather than simply across the board. It's fine to have jobs that are more selfish and ones that provide offensive buffs in lieu, but all that comes out in the wash with rdps, which should be equalized across all dps. Players come up with all sorts of arguments around 'difficulty' to justify retaining the advantages that their job has over others, but it's really in everyone's best interests to have a level playing field and let personal skill dictate who comes up on top.

I do think that 'utility' - by which I mean defensive and support-orientated actions - should be balanced independently of this and also needs to be looked at. Raise actions and magical raidwide mitigation are often worth their weight in gold, while physical raidwide mitigation tends to be more niche. It would be nice if every subrole had something equally valuable to offer in this regard.

[Aikaal]

Honestly? Good.
If it compromises fun boss design or mechanics I don't want heavy downtime or positionals to exist period. Not like the devs know what they're doing with job balance anyways!

Mmh, its not fun for melees to lose uptime due to mechanics so I see why they are doing doing but if they do that, they need toreadjust caster and ranged physical to do similar damage. Otherwise it's just plain favoritism :<

https://clips.twitch.tv/FilthyAlluri...nc2mj2KxrrEP-W

This was admittedly early in prog so I had a few plates I could have spun to make this work (or at least not suck so bad) but I just wanted to illustrate Aikaal's point. To make things even worse, I've had to come up with several different strategies to minimize movement downtime based on several factors, one of which being snake first or stomp first.

This is exactly why I started the tier as RDM and I moved to SMN because at least I keep my damage up. Casters are just getting owned this tier and even BLM can't compete.

As a DRG, you need 2 charges of TN or using one and greeding really hard to catch all your positionals during the Cthonic Vent part. It's not as free as you might think. Also playing as DRG often requires conscious TN planning and positional use due to how positional-intensive the job is.

RDM having to plan their resources for movement is something that happens in every fight because they are the least mobile caster. Healers have it worse, since they're quite the turrets now if they want to avoid dealing less damage.

Oh, I'm not saying you don't lose damage but look at the clip here. Speaking off. There's nothing worst for a RDM than to use all your melee combos just for mobility reasons. Simply put, you want me melee on burst windows otherwise you just don't do damage and you fall behind. That's not an issue a DRG, for example, needs to care.

There's just no consideration to caster DPS. Ranged Physical DPS also deal significant less damage and they are doing fine. Summoner is quote on quote stronger this tier than RDM only and only because their mobility is actually paying off against RDM. SMN is still in an awful position.

Square dropped the ball really hard this patch. They really screwed up and it becomes clearer now they don't really know what to do. The solution would be to, the very least, start by uplifting the DPS of those trailing behind. Oh and x_x mind you there is nothing I loathe more than playing this cursed SMN job but I'm playing whats best for my group :<

[Aco505]

There's nothing worst for a RDM than to use all your melee combos just for mobility reasons.

Using a melee combo to keep uptime will always be better than keeping it for bursts. BLM is on a similar boat with its resources.

Within the melees, this particularly concerns NIN, since they have the ability to save some actions to keep uptime when disengaging.

Uptime is more important that getting more potency in buffs, and this is shared across all jobs. That's why it's better to save a damage gapcloser for uptime when needed than to blast it during buffs.

but all that comes out in the wash with rdps, which should be equalized across all dps.

A job with no buffs can't have the same rDPS as a job with buffs or otherwise the former is strong in every single scenario.

Picture a party composed of SAM, BLM, MCH and RPR and no other buffs. This party has high personal damage per DPS, but the individual rDPS of each of them can't be higher than a job buffing 7 more people.

If you got a DNC instead of a MCH, it's logical that the DNC had more rDPS because it's buffing several "selfish" DPS.

On the other hand, the overall damage of both comps would be relatively similar, because the aDPS/nDPS of the first one is higher than that of the 2nd one.

rDPS and aDPS/nDPS feed and complement each other. Some jobs are "selfish", some jobs are buffers, and some are in between.

[Aikaal]

Using a melee combo to keep uptime will always be better than keeping it for bursts. BLM is on a similar boat with its resources.

True but you miss the whole point. a RDM full melee combo is 2990 potency out of 12.7s. 2990 Potency is very high. You could rep that with 5 normal GCDs yeah. Let's actually calc what 3 Verthunder III, 2 Verfire because let's be optimal and an acceleration was dropped there. 1800 potency in 12.4s.

0.3s second aside. Yeah, uptime is always better but every time a Red Mage is using a melee combo outside of a burst window for mobility and uptime, he losses 1190 potency in a burst window. Tell me, does this equal to the potency loss of losing a few positionals? No, hell no it doesn't. Red Mage is just terrible period. If you were also unaware, Red Mage also suffers the great triple Enshroud pot issue where if you can Triple Resolution under a pot window, you should. That's something I was doing in DSR and I had a triple resolution burst pot window and a double melee combo and my DPS was really high for a caster but I could never rival a melee DPS.

Red Mage and Black Mage suffers a lot more than any melee who lose positional over mobility. Because their mobility skills are all their burst. Summoner gets away with it because they are a Physical Ranged. Still, I still need to do a Bahamut > Ifrit follow up in a burst window for the Vents otherwise I become a threat to my party or I just lose uptime.

So why are we getting punished by having everyone get downtime when there's melee downtime? What's the compensation from being a caster/ranged physical? There is none of that. The game favors Melee DPS and the balance is just effectively broken. The reason more than half the clears on P8S right now are Summoners for casters is because they are the one that deal with those issues better. But even at 100% uptime on my Summoner. I still lose by 10% to a melee DPS.

Also as an edit; you should know since you actually just do 10% more DPS than your caster in your group. It's not like he's bad but your caster shouldn't be 10% behind. The reason nobody plays Warrior or Paladin is because they do 10% less DPS than Dark knights and Gunbreakers. *shockers* nobody play them. So if there's a chance to just perform better with 3 or 4 melees, it'll happen Because this is Melee Fantays XIV and we're playing Meleewalker.

[Keiisuke]

A job with no buffs can't have the same rDPS as a job with buffs

I don't agree with this, as a selfish DPS your DPS comes only from your own damage, as a buffer, it depends on your damage but also and more importantly from the way you are buffing people / how players will use your buffs.

It's the way of contributing to the raid DPS that change, but in the end, the result should be pretty much the same.

[Supersnow845]

I don't agree with this, as a selfish DPS your DPS comes only from your own damage, as a buffer, it depends on your damage but also and more importantly from the way you are buffing people / how players will use your buffs.

It's the way of contributing to the raid DPS that change, but in the end, the result should be pretty much the same.

I think in a roundabout way he is trying to say that if BLM rDPS = RDM rDPS just as an example then BLM would actually be stronger because rDPS not only adds DPS contributions to the buffers but subtracts them from the buffee, so if BLM = RDM when RDM applies a buff then theoretically a party comprised of no buffers would be objectively stronger

So I think the best way to say it would be rDPS if buffing classes should equal aDPS of the selfish classes (aDPS on DPS still runs into devilment cards and left eye but is more accurate)

[Aco505]

0.3s second aside. Yeah, uptime is always better but every time a Red Mage is using a melee combo outside of a burst window for mobility and uptime, he losses 1190 potency in a burst window. Tell me, does this equal to the potency loss of losing a few positionals? No, hell no it doesn't. Red Mage is just terrible period. If you were also unaware, Red Mage also suffers the great triple Enshroud pot issue where if you can Triple Resolution under a pot window, you should. That's something I was doing in DSR and I had a triple resolution burst pot window and a double melee combo and my DPS was really high for a caster but I could never rival a melee DPS.

Could you tell me where you got that 1.2k potency? Because if you mean that using 50 mana to move outside of Embolden (a 5% buff) is 1.2k potency, then it's hardly the case. Using the number you provide (2990), 5% of a melee combo (and you can't fit two entire melee combos into Embolden) is 149.5 potency. If you add 6 of these GCDs into Manafication's 5%, you get 306,48 potency.

Assuming you had 0 mana by the time a 2-min starts (but still got Manafication for an extra 50), the loss would be not having a 2nd combo ready during Embolden, which would net to less than 149.5 potency. I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.

So I don't see how I'm "missing the point". RDM is the least mobile caster, yes, but uptime > all.

That the gap between DPS is too big right now is not even debatable. I think I've made this clear in my posts.

I don't agree with this, as a selfish DPS your DPS comes only from your own damage, as a buffer, it depends on your damage but also and more importantly from the way you are buffing people / how players will use your buffs.

It's the way of contributing to the raid DPS that change, but in the end, the result should be pretty much the same.

I didn't invent the terms, but that's how they work.

I think in a roundabout way he is trying to say that if BLM rDPS = RDM rDPS just as an example then BLM would actually be stronger because rDPS not only adds DPS contributions to the buffers but subtracts them from the buffee, so if BLM = RDM when RDM applies a buff then theoretically a party comprised of no buffers would be objectively stronger

So I think the best way to say it would be rDPS if buffing classes should equal aDPS of the selfish classes (aDPS on DPS still runs into devilment cards and left eye but is more accurate)

It's not roundabout. If you go to the nDPS charts, you'll see who is on top. Then switch to rDPS and you see how several jobs move. It's the way these metrics work.

[SaberMaxwell]

Even better is when you start a melee combo in time for a mechanic to force you out of melee because its one of those mechanics that budgets the team 4 melee spots and assumes all ranged can be ranged 100% of the time. Like, say, some Cthonic Vent patterns, or specifically Bird and Dragon phase when Stomp was first. Nothing feels better than sitting on E. Redoublement when a melee has one of those cherished spots up close.

None of it is anything some careful planning of resources can't solve--like you said that's RDM's gameplay loop and if I didn't love it I wouldn't play it. The question falls down to "why is it so low damage compared to melee dps?" Both Red Mage and Summoner do have abilities that mandate melee range, if not for long then at least frequently enough for consideration.

[Aikaal]

Even better is when you start a melee combo in time for a mechanic to force you out of melee because its one of those mechanics that budgets the team 4 melee spots and assumes all ranged can be ranged 100% of the time. Like, say, some Cthonic Vent patterns, or specifically Bird and Dragon phase when Stomp was first. Nothing feels better than sitting on E. Redoublement when a melee has one of those cherished spots up close.

None of it is anything some careful planning of resources can't solve--like you said that's RDM's gameplay loop and if I didn't love it I wouldn't play it. The question falls down to "why is it so low damage compared to melee dps?" Both Red Mage and Summoner do have abilities that mandate melee range, if not for long then at least frequently enough for consideration.

Or when someone dies and you have to res in mid melee combo epesadge:

Could you tell me where you got that 1.2k potency? Because if you mean that using 50 mana to move outside of Embolden (a 5% buff) is 1.2k potency, then it's hardly the case. Using the number you provide (2990), 5% of a melee combo (and you can't fit two entire melee combos into Embolden) is 149.5 potency. If you add 6 of these GCDs into Manafication's 5%, you get 306,48 potency.

Assuming you had 0 mana by the time a 2-min starts (but still got Manafication for an extra 50), the loss would be not having a 2nd combo ready during Embolden, which would net to less than 149.5 potency. I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.

So I don't see how I'm "missing the point". RDM is the least mobile caster, yes, but uptime > all.

That the gap between DPS is too big right now is not even debatable. I think I've made this clear in my posts.

Very simple.

Melee combo is 12.7s. This is 5 GCDs. It's total 2990 Potency.
5 GCDs is 1800 potency at 12.4s.

What you lose is... let's take my party comp.
Arcane Circle 3% damage buff.
Embolden 5% Damage Buff.
Finale 6% Damage Buff.
Chain, 10% crit rate.
Battle Voice, 20% DH rate.
Litany, 10% Crit rate.
Wanderer's Minuit, 2% Crit rate.

Just on raw damage, this is 14.64%. So moving that melee combo means 1190 potency does not get a 14.64% damage buff. That's 174 Potency down the drain. I also didn't count the fact there's 22% Crit rate and 20% DH. Want better? You actually want to double melee combo and hit the verflare/scorch/resolution part because that's 2010 potency on 3 GCDs. I also didn't slap Manafication which adds an extra 5% Damage on 6 spells which is multiplicative. You absolutely do not want and must always avoid using your melee combo just for mobility. Because, yeah, it'll save your uptime but you're taking a significant damage loss and when you're the bottom of the barrel to begin with, you can't afford to lower your damage.

THe point is very simple and that isn't attributed to just you but anybody else who think casters and physical ranged should be lower than Melee.


First, you play melee. It's fine to always want your job to be the strongest but you should consider the game is still unbalanced and favors you.
Second, you have no actual knowledge of caster and ranged physical. Like, maybe you know but maybe you don't but Saber Maxell actually uses Enchanted Reprise to keep his uptime and that cost Black/White Mana. This is quite a desperate option since it deals Jolt II DPS which is the worst DPS button. Like, I scouted your logs. You only play Dragoon and melee DPS. You have no log of any other jobs. (You can scout mine, you'll see I have indeed played Melee DPS during Stormblood when melee downtime was an actual thing)
Third, you do talk as if people who make comments that the current situation isn't balanced as if they don't know the game. Please, do check my logs. I do have the door boss down and I do have DSR cleared. I can check someone like SaberMaxwell and he has DSR cleared on RDM as well. To the very least, don't dismiss people who have actual better progression and experience.

The summary is very simple. Melee DPS just do more raw damage. Mechanics actually impact caster DPS a lot more than melee DPS. Casters are already doing less damage. We have no compensation to play this role. Res? Yeah, res won't save you an enrage timer or a death on Gorgon that triggers a domino effect. Also, I swear to God. All my 3 points seem to be valid to anyone who actually think this is ok and theres no melee favoritism.

[Supersnow845]

Could you tell me where you got that 1.2k potency? Because if you mean that using 50 mana to move outside of Embolden (a 5% buff) is 1.2k potency, then it's hardly the case. Using the number you provide (2990), 5% of a melee combo (and you can't fit two entire melee combos into Embolden) is 149.5 potency. If you add 6 of these GCDs into Manafication's 5%, you get 306,48 potency.

Assuming you had 0 mana by the time a 2-min starts (but still got Manafication for an extra 50), the loss would be not having a 2nd combo ready during Embolden, which would net to less than 149.5 potency. I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.

So I don't see how I'm "missing the point". RDM is the least mobile caster, yes, but uptime > all.

That the gap between DPS is too big right now is not even debatable. I think I've made this clear in my posts.



I didn't invent the terms, but that's how they work.



It's not roundabout. If you go to the nDPS charts, you'll see who is on top. Then switch to rDPS and you see how several jobs move. It's the way these metrics work.

Sorry I meant if that was your meaning your original comment didn’t convey it very well because I struggled to understand what you meant by it and I understand the distinction between a n and r DPS