Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

[Moebious]

I honestly hate your idea of allowing Fight or Flight apply to the magic phase, it actually kills any and all optimisation that those at higher levels of play enjoy Paladin for. So personally that's a hard pass from me.
SkS should affect recast timers for spells, this would reduce some of PLDs rotational drift out of raid buffs, and add a bit of QoL to DRK.
Spending gauge for cooldown reduction feels bad tbh, I think all four tank invuln recast timers should be revised and be balanced better than having this 1 minute apart currently, but Hallowed Ground definitely needs a flat cooldown reduction when looking at the other three in the recent raid environment.
Cover needs to not apply to the target, but to the PLD casting cover, as it helps to mitigate incoming dmg, I've said before but it should apply Knight's Resolve and Knight's Benediction to the PLD if they want to keep the 50 gauge cost.

Understandable that you might hate it but you speak of optimization, as of 6.2, the opener has just become braindead Req into valor, and because the combo is 25 seconds long, which means you want final Valor to be within the current 2min raid buff meta, because its potency buff and its dot associated with it, don't even have time to apply GB before req/valor, in most buffs. Not to mention that FoF opener is completely dead in the water now(potencies).

With how they are turning or reworking all jobs into 2min burst of 20 seconds or so, PLD is now severely lacking in burst capability, because they got a 50 second damage phase(req/fof). So one field has to give, or the devs has to go back to making each job simply have their own cycles of bursts again, which once in a while align with each other. But that Meta comp will still be made out of of those even then. The PLD issue can't be solved without touching the 50 second rotation phases, because like I mentioned with reversing Warrior 1-2-3 potency buff, and putting them into their burst, it's sadly what PLD needs to get a buff as well.

HG, as it stands Hallowed Ground need a tradeoff, and I think we both can agree its trade off shouldn't be longer CD, with how it has become almost standard to have these invulns for specific tank mechanics now. Gauge is a lucrative resource for PLD but being able to utilize gauge for HG CD manipulation, would be a layer to PLD just being the more advanced Tank, I do agree HG needs a CD reduction just flat out, to maybe 6 mins, and then being able to shave off 2min cd by having 20 Gauge or something to spend on HG, it just needs a proper tradeoff. 50 Gauge is probably too high a cost, 20 would seem about the easy side, giving the PLD ability to give co-tank intervention, and during HG duration able to build just enough Gauge for Sheltron as it expires.

Cover being infused with Intervention to the target, would seem a decent bargain, since its got an outrageous CD attached to it as is. I assume it's Mitigation for the target, and cure regen potency for the PLD, or maybe instead of all damage it's conversion of 50-90%?

[Armandin]

HG should really have a much lower CD. If PLDs could use it for two Tbs per fight like WARs can with Holmgang, then it would make players choose between doing more damage(DRK/GNB)or more defense(WAR/PLD). Obviously PLD/WAR need to have their dps increased by a reasonable amount. The lowest damage tank should deal 2-3% less than the highest. Not 7-10+%.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Understandable that you might hate it but you speak of optimization, as of 6.2, the opener has just become braindead Req into valor, and because the combo is 25 seconds long, which means you want final Valor to be within the current 2min raid buff meta, because its potency buff and its dot associated with it, don't even have time to apply GB before req/valor, in most buffs. Not to mention that FoF opener is completely dead in the water now(potencies).

With how they are turning or reworking all jobs into 2min burst of 20 seconds or so, PLD is now severely lacking in burst capability, because they got a 50 second damage phase(req/fof). So one field has to give, or the devs has to go back to making each job simply have their own cycles of bursts again, which once in a while align with each other. But that Meta comp will still be made out of of those even then. The PLD issue can't be solved without touching the 50 second rotation phases, because like I mentioned with reversing Warrior 1-2-3 potency buff, and putting them into their burst, it's sadly what PLD needs to get a buff as well.

HG, as it stands Hallowed Ground need a tradeoff, and I think we both can agree its trade off shouldn't be longer CD, with how it has become almost standard to have these invulns for specific tank mechanics now. Gauge is a lucrative resource for PLD but being able to utilize gauge for HG CD manipulation, would be a layer to PLD just being the more advanced Tank, I do agree HG needs a CD reduction just flat out, to maybe 6 mins, and then being able to shave off 2min cd by having 20 Gauge or something to spend on HG, it just needs a proper tradeoff. 50 Gauge is probably too high a cost, 20 would seem about the easy side, giving the PLD ability to give co-tank intervention, and during HG duration able to build just enough Gauge for Sheltron as it expires.

Cover being infused with Intervention to the target, would seem a decent bargain, since its got an outrageous CD attached to it as is. I assume it's Mitigation for the target, and cure regen potency for the PLD, or maybe instead of all damage it's conversion of 50-90%?

lol no it hasn't, optimised rotations are currently a Work in Progress, check the PLD Encounters channel of Balance Discord, it will probably be a little while before optimal rotations will be released. The "slowboi" rotation is to coincide with the 2.46+ GCD sets for PLD, but that is only BiS in a vacuum. The standard Fight or Flight opener currently lines up better with p6s for example. Paladin doesn't actually consider raid buffs, it does it's own thing to maximise usage on a fight by fight basis, and to minimise as much downtime as possible, since Paladin's rotation by nature leaks DPS if uptime is not maintained to a high degree.

Allowing Fight or Flight to affect magic damage is not going to get any approval from me at least as it'll as was already said ruin the loop for Paladin, and makes Paladin just as brain numbingly boring as the rest of the tanks, which is why I prefer they yah know buff the physical aspect of Paladin, Goring Blade's on hit potency needs buffing, Royal Authority's potency needs buffing, Atonement's potency needs buffing, can even buff both DoTs.

Granted if the current rotation was made to align perfectly on a 60second rotation at an attainable SkS threshold where it wouldn't cause egregious clipping of either Goring Blade or Blade of Valor's DoT, then sure maybe buff alignment would become more prevalent in Paladin's optimisation. Even with reducing Paladin's spells GCD recast via SkS, it still wouldn't align with a 60second, unless we continued to drop an Atonement during the unbuffed phase at a 2.4GCD. I guess if they put a hard recast time of 2 seconds recast on Atonement, unaffected by other GCD recasts, it would allow for spending all 3 stacks of Sword Oath during the unbuffed phase, but I guess keep Atonement as it is gives the option of being allowed a spare GCD to align with fights is also a nice thing to have.

I mean Paladin kinda always lacked burst, even in ShB, the only difference was that was used as the balancing measure in ShB. WAR and DRK had big burst but moderate sustain to compensate, while GNB and PLD had moderate burst, but strong sustain, which allowed for the tanks honestly to be well balanced. Much the same for Paladin in SB, it didn't have much burst, it was all about sustaining it's rotation, and managing to keep as much uptime as possible, especially with Sword Oath granting a second auto attack essentially.

As for WAR, it's still pretty far behind DRK and GNB, so it doesn't need reallocation, it can just be given potency buff to it's burst to bring it up also.

honestly, with how current fights allow for debuffs to pass through true invulns like Hallowed Ground and Superbolide, I honestly think their value has diminished greatly compared to what it was 2-4 years ago. If devs are going to actively design fights with means to circumvent invulns, then no, no trade-off is really necessary for Hallowed, if can still be the longest recast in comparison to the other 3 invulns, but a shorter recast is needed, 7 minutes in the current job balance is excessive. Especially with Paladin having the least amount of personal mitigation, being able to use invuln to supplement it's defensive kit even slightly better would be an improvement, on what it is now.

I was more meaning apply the Knight's Resolve and Knight's Benediction buffs to the Paladin that used Cover, as a means of being able to mitigate incoming damage similar to SB's Cover but now with a cost, as current Cover was excessively neutered in ShB.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

HG should really have a much lower CD. If PLDs could use it for two Tbs per fight like WARs can with Holmgang, then it would make players choose between doing more damage(DRK/GNB)or more defense(WAR/PLD). Obviously PLD/WAR need to have their dps increased by a reasonable amount. The lowest damage tank should deal 2-3% less than the highest. Not 7-10+%.

With both DRK and GNB both being better defensively than PLD at present, you statement of, choice of damage versus defense is incorrect. By all accounts, with Paladin being the least defensive tank and the hardest tank to play at a high level (even though it will be argued that difficulty in playing job shouldn't affect DPS output), it should be outputting the most amount of DPS, which is kind of fair, as it shouldn't get punished for "utility" that is super niche, and personally I think utility like Clemency or a raise, should be punished by using it, having to spend excess MP and lose damage by spending a GCD to use said utility, not for simply possessing that ability.

Fights aren't designed around Cover, much like they aren't designed around Passage of Arms, those 2 skills are entirely optional abilities in fight design, otherwise it would shoe horn Paladin into a must have, which clearly isn't the case, with it's way below average pick rate. With very little use for Cover in the last 2 expansions, in it current neutered state, it's not a justifiable reason that Paladin possessing Cover, is worth keeping it's damage so low because "utility". Passage of Arms is very much a trade-off of Paladin missing an extra personal cooldown at this point.

[Absurdity]

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

Let's ask the numbers. Oh...



"Saving private paladin" meme has a lot of truth behind it.

DSR is funnily enough another case of Paladin getting punished just for being designed the way it is, so the low pick rate is no surprise. Loads of downtime where you just dodge mechanics, block not working while incapacitated.


The pick rate for GnB in DSR would probably be even higher if phase change timings weren't a complete nightmare for that job.

[Derio]

At this point PLD will just have to limp along until a full rework is done in 7.0

Sustain vs Mitigation tanks definately seem to be a thing where mitigation tanks will excel in 8 man content and sustain tanks will excel in 4 man content supposedly when realistically and ideally you would want all tanks to be on even footing and viable to the point where no tank has a significant advantage over the others to such a degree where they are barred from content.

[Absimiliard]

GNB is honestly probably the best middle ground out of all the tanks. It's got good mitigation, some self-sustain, and good damage output. An ideal outcome would be for all tanks to operate like this, though obviously with some differences in playstyles to avoid the homogenization we're seeing now.

[Marxam]

At this point PLD will just have to limp along until a full rework is done in 7.0

Sustain vs Mitigation tanks definately seem to be a thing where mitigation tanks will excel in 8 man content and sustain tanks will excel in 4 man content supposedly when realistically and ideally you would want all tanks to be on even footing and viable to the point where no tank has a significant advantage over the others to such a degree where they are barred from content.

its just poor balancing imo. They necessitate a "weaker" defensive tool kit for more damage and honestly making everything an ogcd is just lazy imo. Talk to any healer that has to carry a DRK through the poison dot in P5S vs a WAR in week 1 and you will see a stark contrast. Obviously, if all your ogcds hit harder than fell cleave, are instant, and can be double weaved you will naturally do more damage. That's just fact.

[Supersnow845]

its just poor balancing imo. They necessitate a "weaker" defensive tool kit for more damage and honestly making everything an ogcd is just lazy imo. Talk to any healer that has to carry a DRK through the poison dot in P5S vs a WAR in week 1 and you will see a stark contrast. Obviously, if all your ogcds hit harder than fell cleave, are instant, and can be double weaved you will naturally do more damage. That's just fact.

With the number of oGCD’s DRK has since the puddle is magical and they have two casts of oblation the only thing that pushes WAR over the edge in survivability is equilibrium, in those tankbuster situations where equilibrium is already on CD I’d much rather heal a DRK

[Martynek]

I see a lot of PFs locking Tank roles to DRK and GNB. Something wrong with PLD and WAR?

They're compensating for their small [redacted] by making other people carry them, so they parrot what some third party website tells them about "job balance".

I recommend joining these parties as DRKs and GNBs and throwing the raid. It's what they deserve.