Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

[Oizen]

Like how people just ignore that holmgang is the best invul in the game, to the point it standardized invul cheese on tank busting mechanics

[RyuDragnier]

But that doesn't fit into their narrative that low DPS = bad tank.

[esra01]

WAR is underpowered defensively in raids, dark missionary and heart of light are better than divine veil and shake it off because they last the entire duration, not just till the shield cracks, on top of that in situations like the DOT busters this tier while bloodwhetting gives self healing it’s actual upfront mitigation is weaker than HOC and HS (and DRK has two extra defensives) and the self heal cannot compensate for the higher DOT potency

Bloodwhetting should be changed to have a higher upfront mitigation but only activate healing once per GCD, not once per enemy per GCD, that would fix the “healers aren’t needed when WAR is the tank” in dungeons, and buff WAR’d raid survivability

Both PLD and WAR need a damage buff, PLD should be first in damage not last, it has the most complex tank rotation

Divine Veil is 10k shield + 7k heal.

P7S raidwide is 44k upfront + 18k x 4 DoT for a total of 116.000 damage. Dark Missionary/Heart of Light would mitigate 11.600 of that while Divine Veil will mitigate 17k, Divine Veil being a shield + heal is strictly better than just pure mitigation.

About the tankbusters let's check the math again.
P7S tankbuster deals 110k upfront + 33k x 5 DoT for 275.000 damage. So then let's calculate the damage taken by both tanks using Rampart + Personal Mitigation with 1k heal/shield potency is 20% of character's health.
Warrior would get 35.2% mitigation + Bloodwhetting & Equilbrium for a total for 4.2k potency of shield&heal.(88% health)
GNB would get 42.2% mitigation + Aurora for 2.1k total heal potency.(44% health)

So let's assume both WAR and the GNB have 100.000 health.
Warrior would take 71.280 + 21.384 x 5 (106.920) = 178.200
100.000 + 88.000 - 178.200 = 9800 health left
GNB would take 63.580 + 19074 x 5 (95370 ) = 158950
100.000 + 44.000 - 158.950 = -14.950 ( dead )

[Supersnow845]

Divine Veil is 10k shield + 7k heal.

P7S raidwide is 44k upfront + 18k x 4 DoT for a total of 116.000 damage. Dark Missionary/Heart of Light would mitigate 11.600 of that while Divine Veil will mitigate 17k, Divine Veil being a shield + heal is strictly better than just pure mitigation.

About the tankbusters let's check the math again.
P7S tankbuster deals 110k upfront + 33k x 5 DoT for 275.000 damage. So then let's calculate the damage taken by both tanks using Rampart + Personal Mitigation with 1k heal/shield potency is 20% of character's health.
Warrior would get 35.2% mitigation + Bloodwhetting & Equilbrium for a total for 4.2k potency of shield&heal.(88% health)
GNB would get 42.2% mitigation + Aurora for 2.1k total heal potency.(44% health)

So let's assume both WAR and the GNB have 100.000 health.
Warrior would take 71.280 + 21.384 x 5 (106.920) = 178.200
100.000 + 88.000 - 178.200 = 9800 health left
GNB would take 63.580 + 19074 x 5 (95370 ) = 158950
100.000 + 44.000 - 158.950 = -14.950 ( dead )

Divine veil also puts the healing upfront, so either you don’t have mitigation for the initial hit which can and will oneshot the party without effective mitigation so as to not waste the heal or you pop it after the initial hit so that you get the heal and the shield mitigates the DOT’s but the raidwide itself goes unmitigated by the tank, this is to say nothing of situations like terminal relativity or curtain call where shield mitigation is out and out inferior in all situations

As for the tank buster situation I’ll full admit that is much closer than I originally thought, thank you for correcting me on that, I’m not sure I love your comparison of equilibrium to aurora as the “extra CD” but I’ll fully admit my original statement of WAR being underpowered defensively was wrong, it is still way too underpowered offensively but otherwise the problem is still mostly PLD

[Moebious]

The fix to both PLD and WAR seems simple. Since it's raid burst phase for both that seems a bit lacking.

For Warrior its removing the 6.2 potency buff to their 1-2-3 rotation and applying it to their burst instead, Fellcleave, Primal Rend, and/or Inner Chaos. This alone should fix Warrior burst to be comparable, for how incredibly GCD heavy they are.

For Paladin it's making Fight of Flight buff apply to magical damage too, thus making Req into Sword Valor the defacto PLD burst. And with how they changed the potencies in the req 6.2, being all together higher than FoF physical phase anyway, pure req opener seems like their intend now anyway, not to mention that full req into sword valor completion is 25 seconds, since skillspeed doesn't affect those gcds(which they really should change tbh, DRK's unmend too for that matter). Like Warrior, PLD's burst is also GCD heavy.
This might effectively kill Paladins physical phase, and just have it be Paladin's usual in-between theme, now a downtime, unless they of course change potencies between atonement and Req Holy Spirit again. TBH I wouldn't mind them reducing holy spirit potencies(or stacks), but still making sword valor the important burst phase, thus having PLD spending all but 1 req stack, then having delayed royal authority to then Confiture into Sword Valor, and have 3 oath stacks ready for the last seconds of FoF after Valor completes. This, at least to me would feel a very satisfying, since I really like how Atonement in rotations, and do feel they should stay as an important factor in PLD's burst rotation.

Paladin's Hallowed Ground and Cover though, they really need to add something else to these abilities, maybe have HG expend all or 50 gauge for CD reduction. And Cover really needs a mitigation application on their target, or some side benefit, so they aren't only a once in a blue moon clutch save on a healer to ensure Healer LB3. Paladin is the most advanced tank of them all, yet their payoff aren't really there at all.

Another topic, as discussed.
At this point it really seems like Tanks are turning into Mit vs Sustain Tanks, which usually wouldn't be a bad thing, if their burst damage in raid buff comp was comparable, and they synergized between each type better but they don't, their current balance makes Mit tanks not only the obvious best tanks in high end but also gave them the highest raid buffed burst damage too, which makes no sense.

[Mithron]

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

For Paladin it's making Fight of Flight buff apply to magical damage too, thus making Req into Sword Valor the defacto PLD burst. And with how they changed the potencies in the req 6.2, being all together higher than FoF physical phase anyway, pure req opener seems like their intend now anyway, not to mention that full req into sword valor completion is 25 seconds, since skillspeed doesn't affect those gcds(which they really should change tbh, DRK's unmend too for that matter). Like Warrior, PLD's burst is also GCD heavy.
This might effectively kill Paladins physical phase, and just have it be Paladin's usual in-between theme, now a downtime, unless they of course change potencies between atonement and Req Holy Spirit again. TBH I wouldn't mind them reducing holy spirit potencies(or stacks), but still making sword valor the important burst phase, thus having PLD spending all but 1 req stack, then having delayed royal authority to then Confiture into Sword Valor, and have 3 oath stacks ready for the last seconds of FoF after Valor completes. This, at least to me would feel a very satisfying, since I really like how Atonement in rotations, and do feel they should stay as an important factor in PLD's burst rotation.

Paladin's Hallowed Ground and Cover though, they really need to add something else to these abilities, maybe have HG expend all or 50 gauge for CD reduction. And Cover really needs a mitigation application on their target, or some side benefit, so they aren't only a once in a blue moon clutch save on a healer to ensure Healer LB3. Paladin is the most advanced tank of them all, yet their payoff aren't really there at all.

I honestly hate your idea of allowing Fight or Flight apply to the magic phase, it actually kills any and all optimisation that those at higher levels of play enjoy Paladin for. So personally that's a hard pass from me.
SkS should affect recast timers for spells, this would reduce some of PLDs rotational drift out of raid buffs, and add a bit of QoL to DRK.

Spending gauge for cooldown reduction feels bad tbh, I think all four tank invuln recast timers should be revised and be balanced better than having this 1 minute apart currently, but Hallowed Ground definitely needs a flat cooldown reduction when looking at the other three in the recent raid environment.

your recommended Cover mitigation buff needs to not apply to the target, but to the PLD casting cover, as it helps to mitigate incoming dmg, I've said before but it should apply Knight's Resolve and Knight's Benediction to the PLD if they want to keep the 50 gauge cost.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

DPS check wasn't as tight in DSR as it was for week 1 p8s. But still PLD and WAR are still behind DRK and GNB for output in DSR. PLD is also quite weak compared to the other three tanks during Phase 2 and Phase 5 especially due to the short uptime phases.

[Azuri]

Were PLD/WAR barred from Dragonsong Ultimate?

Let's ask the numbers. Oh...



"Saving private paladin" meme has a lot of truth behind it.

[TheDustyOne]

For Paladin it's making Fight of Flight buff apply to magical damage too

I'll echo Aodhans sentiments here in that I wouldn't want this, it's too drastic of a change to the overall feel of the jobs loop for something that could be fixed with a handful of potency tweaks. I can at least agree with Hallowed Ground though, Hallowed Grounds cooldown is too long compared to other invulns and the fact that we have a 'true' invuln doesn't really make up for it. Other tanks still get to shrug off death, quickly heal themselves back up, and be ready to do that again for the next buster.