Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

[-Magnai-]

I think it's because we either got nerfed or SE forgot about us orz

[ForteNightshade]

There's roughly about 200 dps between all the tanks, and if you look at the statistics, PLD is now marginally outperforming DRK on most of the fights following the 6.21 buffs. This is in comparison to DPS jobs that are each individually doing more than 150% of your raid contribution and vary by nearly 1000 dps in some cases.

You should try your best. But the unfortunate truth is that SE has gone to great lengths over the past few expansions to de-emphasize the value of good tanks, and you will not make or break any of these checks outside of grossly underperforming.

No, it isn't.

For tanks, aDPS is a better representation of their actual contribution because they're entirely selfish jobs. In that category, Dark Knight is still noticeably ahead, especially in P8S. While DPS are in a worst state overall, the tanks still aren't balanced very well. Hence why Dark Knight and Gunbreaker have continued to dominate.

[Lyth]

I don't really agree with that approach. rdps is the fairest comparison for all jobs because it credits all damage done under buffs to the owner of that buff. For tanks, that means that you're looking at their own, unaltered personal dps (ndps).

adps tries to be clever and cherry pick buffs to try to be representative of the pre-Stormblood/early Stormblood standard while trying to exclude ones that are vulnerable to targeted padding, like dance partner, DRG Eye, and AST cards. But it still allows for buff padding nonetheless based off your party composition, just like in the old days.

If you're trying to maximize your adps, you theoretically should be running without any other selfish jobs, like SAM and BLM, and fill all those slots with buff providers. But that's actually counterintuitive to how we actually play when trying to kill bosses faster. The real value of adps is in doing a personal comparison of yourself with yourself under similar conditions to see how well you're lining up with buff windows. But it's not a great approach for doing comparisons of job performances on a grand scale, which is where rdps really shines.

The metric that really matters at the end of the day is your boss kill time. And that depends on your raid's total rdps.

[Undeadfire]

The metric that really matters at the end of the day is your boss kill time. And that depends on your raid's total rdps.

I mean if you put it that way, PLD would never be picked for this unless the changes are solid. Speed kills will always result to a meta comp consisting of Sam, Mnk, Blm, Dnc, Drk, Gnb, Ast, Sch. Paladin will fall off raid buffs very quickly over time, and kill speeds has always been determined by comps, Crit/DH RNG, Pot timings, and cooldown timings. aDPS is always extremely detrimental in those comparisons.

Edit: rDPS is still very much effected by kill time for each job and their rotations based to it. Some jobs get completely cucked with a quick kill, or mid fast kill, and PLD is plenty times over many fights requiring a slow kill.

[Launched]

I don't really agree with that approach. rdps is the fairest comparison for all jobs because it credits all damage done under buffs to the owner of that buff. For tanks, that means that you're looking at their own, unaltered personal dps (ndps).

adps tries to be clever and cherry pick buffs to try to be representative of the pre-Stormblood/early Stormblood standard while trying to exclude ones that are vulnerable to targeted padding, like dance partner, DRG Eye, and AST cards. But it still allows for buff padding nonetheless based off your party composition, just like in the old days.

If you're trying to maximize your adps, you theoretically should be running without any other selfish jobs, like SAM and BLM, and fill all those slots with buff providers. But that's actually counterintuitive to how we actually play when trying to kill bosses faster. The real value of adps is in doing a personal comparison of yourself with yourself under similar conditions to see how well you're lining up with buff windows. But it's not a great approach for doing comparisons of job performances on a grand scale, which is where rdps really shines.

The metric that really matters at the end of the day is your boss kill time. And that depends on your raid's total rdps.

rdps is good for comparing against other players on the same job, not for comparing jobs. It doesn't matter that a PLD will do more damage than DRK when hitting a dummy/ignoring other people, what matters is that in an actual group, a DRK will offer more total DPS by putting more potency inside raid buffs. You can look at adps and apply that dps to the DRK, or rdps and apply that DPS to the NIN, DNC, DRG etc., but either way, an identical group with a DRK instead of PLD will have more total dps and kill faster. adps is good for comparing jobs against each other, especially jobs that have no raid buffs of their own like tanks.

[Lyth]

Again, you cannot calculate your kill time from your team's adps. It's a bit of a nonsense parameter outside of the context of figuring out buff windows and timings. You can, however, calculate your kill time from summing your team's rdps.

Either way, you're focusing on the wrong issues by debating over differences of a hundred dps or so and cherry picking which metric you want to use to beg for 50 potency buffs. The unfortunate truth is that the rest of your team just doesn't care about minor variations in tank dps because you are simply not the heavy lifters here. And that's really the thing that you should be united in fighting for.

Tanks should have carry potential, be it mechanically, dps, or both. As it stands right now, the only reason why the role matters is to get you into the instance. Tanks really get into their heads about min-maxing their gameplay, but you don't really understand how meaningless your efforts are until you give up the 'support' lifestyle and cross over to the dark side to see what it's like to really have an impact. As long as you don't die to something silly and get a DPS killed from an auto/TB, or go for uptime at the expense of that of a DPS, the rest of your team actually doesn't care what you do.

Unless and until that changes, you should strongly reconsider your investment in the role. This is a fantastic tier, but it's the most depressing one that I've seen for tanks in a long time.

[Oizen]

Man this all could have been avoided if their balance changes had a semblance of thought be hind them and weren't just boring "uhhh...HAVE SOME POTENCY" every single patch.

[Kalaam]

Again, you cannot calculate your kill time from your team's adps. It's a bit of a nonsense parameter outside of the context of figuring out buff windows and timings. You can, however, calculate your kill time from summing your team's rdps.

Either way, you're focusing on the wrong issues by debating over differences of a hundred dps or so and cherry picking which metric you want to use to beg for 50 potency buffs. The unfortunate truth is that the rest of your team just doesn't care about minor variations in tank dps because you are simply not the heavy lifters here. And that's really the thing that you should be united in fighting for.

Tanks should have carry potential, be it mechanically, dps, or both. As it stands right now, the only reason why the role matters is to get you into the instance. Tanks really get into their heads about min-maxing their gameplay, but you don't really understand how meaningless your efforts are until you give up the 'support' lifestyle and cross over to the dark side to see what it's like to really have an impact. As long as you don't die to something silly and get a DPS killed from an auto/TB, or go for uptime at the expense of that of a DPS, the rest of your team actually doesn't care what you do.

Unless and until that changes, you should strongly reconsider your investment in the role. This is a fantastic tier, but it's the most depressing one that I've seen for tanks in a long time.

It's really sad that all mechanics tied to tanks (aggro management, boss positionning, adds...) just go removed or made irrelevant. Tanks don't really have anything specific to them, outside of a set assortment of damage reducing abilities that are not that different from each other save for their short CD and invuln'. I'd kind of like tanks to have own situations where they have one took that is a little bit better for some situations and helps with tanking better. Be it as a MT or OT. But well that period is behind us.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Again, you cannot calculate your kill time from your team's adps. It's a bit of a nonsense parameter outside of the context of figuring out buff windows and timings. You can, however, calculate your kill time from summing your team's rdps.

A given team's aDPS and rDPS are identical.

[Undeadfire]

It's really sad that all mechanics tied to tanks (aggro management, boss positionning, adds...) just go removed or made irrelevant.

Aggro management wasn't the tanks responsibility after 3 GCDs, all on DPS/Healers. Only tanks took responsibility if you had incompetent peeps to press -enmity ability.
Boss Positioning still kinda exists, avoiding any means of turning still counts, just this tier everything is massively sized. P5S is the only one to have positioning this tier.