Why use a Dragoon or Monk when you can use a Warrior?

[Ricepudding]

What it comes down to is, why bring a dragoon over a bard or a blm? Bard + Blm covers sleeping and aoe damage, as well as both physical and magic attack types. All this is done at range, and can be positioned in whichever way required.

IMO, melee NEED damage buffs if they're going to be punished so hard with boss mechanics like coincounter, chimera, and mistress. All that time the melee can't run into "bad stuff", the ranged are far surpassing them in damage. I'd love to say melee are just as viable currently, but it's just so much easier to use to clear all the current content with all Bard DD, all Blm DD, or a mix of both.

oh, and the reason I don't mention warrior is because we can use one as a tank, it will do all the damage of a dragoon, AND serve a tanking role as well.

[SirOleas]

Really? Because I'm pretty sure it makes complete sense.

What happens when all of your enmity reduce skills happen to be on cool-down.
It is a glass cannon, so when you DO pull enmity your screwed if you cant stop something from attacking you.
The BEST solution is to keep it stunned until you can successfully rid yourself of enmity.
That particular combo is not meant JUST for damage, its meant as a safty net.

I think people need to look closer at how things work in this game because they obviously arnt.
I haven't even maxed my classes but by reading skill descriptions, you can get a great estimate as to how something is supposed to be used.

SE has built multiple prevenative measures into each class. This is why DRG gets SO much enmity reduce. Yes, there may be an already low chance for something to hit you IF everything is going according to plan.

Why would that matter when Leg Sweep is an AoE stun with a 30 second recast?
You can stun it with leg sweep regardless of enmity.
If the mobs facing you leg sweep is actually easier to pull off to begin with lol.

Why even bother making your second stun require you to have the highest enmity in the party when you already have one that doesn't?

Especially since both stuns require a combo that puts you IN FRONT OF THE MOB! When would you not use leg sweep to stun when the mob will always technically be facing you due to combo requirements? Doubly especially when you're good at DRG you don't have high enmity unless you have a fail tank? (In which case other jobs will have higher enmity than DRG anyway, Such as WHM or BLM who generate a lot more enmity than DRG.)

Perhaps you should look at things more closely.

[Arcell]

Come on... thats sensationalism at its best...
Does the game need balancing tweaks.. yes
But you know what... it ALWAYS will
the balance is not absolutely horrible... I think its definitely in the ballpark

But no matter how much you balance...
There will be people like Starlord and TheVedis who play the classes they love and have fun with them regardless...
And there will always be people who stack certain classes thinking that is the only way it can be done....

But if you balance the content....

Say Shiva had some huge move where you had to incap her legs to stop it from happening... then you're going to want a MNK using "Fist of Fire" with Demolish

If you have to break Titans left arm to stop him from using some ground punch that stuns and damages the entire party... then you damn well better have a dragoon in there

See, the case can be made that every class is situational... and SE has just made more BRD and BLM situations at the moment
Once the content is more diverse, I am hoping we'll see a lot more usefulness out of every class

I'm all in for anything that makes further use of the Incapacitation system. They've really been neglecting it lately.

[Lux_Rayna]

You will be taking more damage by an AOE over MNK and a WAR when Power Surge level 3 increases all damage done to the DRG by 22.5%. Good thing there's very few almost one shotting moves in this game... oh wait.

All AOEs are easily avoidable, and only takes a cpl seconds off your dps. Take Ifrit and Coincounter for example. You can avoid all their aoes, and if you wanted to (shows you dont play the class) you can cancel power surge with Dread Spike which absorbs hp next time you take damage. In other words, no you don't take more dmg from AOEs unless you have no idea what you're doing. Aoe charging? Run away. DPS aren't supposed to eat AOEs. If you can't make it, pop on Dread Spike so you dont take more dmg than everyone else. Easy peazy.

The -25 enmity from AF? The -2.5% enmity gain so your 1000 damage weaponskill acts like a 975 damage weaponskill in terms of hate? Enmity gear is garbage in this game and gives a negligible difference in performance. So much for being not clueless like everyone else? Also using gear that can be replaced with something else as a defense for the job's performance in regards to others is laughable at best.

-enmity is -enmity. Way to ignore the point of the post. Point is DRG gets a lot less enmity than WAR. Deflecting an argument doesn't make you right.

It only gets one more ability than MNK does to reduce hate and it's on a 3 minute cooldown. That's not SO much, and it's not a utility move when it only helps them do a bit more damage without grabbing hate and getting stomped all over. Are they doing greatly more damage than MNK to offset the garbage defense?

A DPS shouldnt be getting hit all that much in the first place. If you wanna stand in AOES all day and wack without a care then WAR is the best class for you. If you plan on actually thinking, a DPS will outdmg WAR every time and take far less dmg because they are avoiding frontal attacks and AOEs. And this isnt about DRG vs MNK...its about DRG, MNK vs WAR. Bottom line is WAR is greater def/hp for less dmg, while DPS is greater dmg for less DEF. I fail to see the point you are *trying* to make.

[indira]

I will give you the only reason you need to know

1) Because people enjoy playing monk and dragoon

exactly.

no one want to play the game if its going to be systematic elitist BS.

[SirOleas]

I would like to point out that enmity is not laughable if all parties involved have a good amount of + or - enmity. It adds up.

the entire Heavy Darklight set 115 enmity, plus a good enmity belt could put you at 125+(with an acceptable double meld) to 140+(with a hard to obtain triple meld) which is 12% to 14%ish positive enmity. Add to that any -enmity that all other party members have and you hit 15% to nearly 20% difference in enmity between the tank and other party members. Depending on enmity melds and other gear with enmity reduction. Not to mention Darklight feet for mages which has -30 enmity on its own.

People think that's laughable? That's a large difference.

[AceofRains]

Why would that matter when Leg Sweep is an AoE stun with a 30 second recast?
You can stun it with leg sweep regardless of enmity.
If the mobs facing you leg sweep is actually easier to pull off to begin with lol.

Why even bother making your second stun require you to have the highest enmity in the party when you already have one that doesn't?

Especially since both stuns require a combo that puts you IN FRONT OF THE MOB! When would you not use leg sweep to stun when the mob will always technically be facing you due to combo requirements? Doubly especially when you're good at DRG you don't have high enmity unless you have a fail tank?

Perhaps you should look at things more closely.

The duration. Leg sweep is a crowd control tactic, the stun is a short duration and only usable in a combo. Heavy thrust gets an increased duration in a combo, you can always stun, even if not using it in a combo. Using both to your advantage, you can keep something thats attacking you perpetually stunned. Yes, situational, but thats what abilities should be. Not spamable.

Secondly, if that still doesn't sit right with you, there is the fact that some abilities lose their value with a job.

Take CNJ for instance. As a WHM arn't going to be casting aero and stone necessarily to attract extra attention to the fact that they are healing. Funny dont hear people complaining about this one.

DRG doesn't necessarily need the stun from heavy thrust, but what if a future job DOES.
I've had lancers tank for me, and perpetual stuns increase your survival.
What happens if we have something like dark knight.
The best way to build a dark knight in this is to make it life sapping, basing in LNC. The ability to keep feeding your HP off an enemy would make tanking as a DRK actually a really smart strategy. On top of that, since your a tank things face you so you perpetually stun to keep from taking damage, as your defense is still that low.

Specialization is actually what makes some of your skills a little more or less useful. WAIT and see where things go with the job system. As it stands, I would recommend SE to produce 3 branches of jobs for each class. Variety never hurt.

[SirOleas]

FFXI is a different game. Doesn't matter that enmity is more potent in that game. I played it for years too.
It doesn't take away from the fact that any difference in enmity is better than no difference in enmity.
Especially when there's basically nothing better to do with belts on WHM/BLM currently. BLM also has -enmity on it's AF. Not sure about WHM though.

Darklight is an accomplishment indeed; It being tough to obtain does not take away from the fact that the amount of enmity difference is obtainable thus possible. It cannot be dismissed, and it certainly is not laughable.

I would take a small 5% difference between my BLM and the Tank any day over nothing at all. But I will do the extra work to obtain Darklight to increase that gap so I can be a better mage as well.

That's the point.

[SirOleas]

Which is just another point: Since enmity does not decay over the course of a battle then you are always that much lower on the hate list throughout the entire battle technically. Not counting player skill obviously if you have a crappy tank who is always half afk or a BLM who nukes without using their enmity reducing tools then enmity matters less etc.

The point being that if you are lower on the hate list then you are able to do more damage/healing before reaching red enmity. Which means that using enmity reducing skills will always keep you lower on the list for a longer period of time compared to not having enmity reduction at all.

It's really nice if you actually think about it.

In any case; Back to the whole balance the jobs thing. >_>;

[AceofRains]

In any case; Back to the whole balance the jobs thing. >_>;

It is impossible to perfectly balance jobs. It simply can't and shouldn't be attempted.
After you specialize into a job, nobody is ever going to be quite equal, you just do more or less in different areas