RDM underperforming by the way of neglect

[RylaBee]

Ok so what's the margin? What's the difference in damage % between the casters?

Its not compared to casters, its compared to all other jobs. I'm sure you can look it up.

[Supersnow845]

RDM... a turret? That needs mobility tools?

We are talking about Red Mage, right? The job with both a dash-in and a disengage (two charges, each, even)? The job with a melee combo, with no positionals, capped with two instant-cast finishers? The same job with Dualcast, meaning they only ever have to stand still for 50% (or less) of their rotation?

That RDM is somehow spending more time rooted in place than a BLM, whose Ley Lines require they stay in position to get any benefit?

RDM actually does handle long bursts of movement far worse than BLM though especially outside of melee range. If you have to be outside of melee range RDM has functionally nothing for movement, if you are in melee range you can’t guarantee the movement will fall under a melee combo unless you force the off combo into that window (and generally if it’s a movement mechanic the melees and tanks need the melee spot)

BLM is rooted during leylines but otherwise can stack many movement tools (triple cast, sharp cast, ice paradox, swift cast etc) to get 5-8 GCD’s of constant movement at any distance from the boss

I don’t think any of the magical DPS need more movement options (about the only class that needs movement options right now is SCH) but saying RDM is more turrety and BLM is not totally untrue

[Keiisuke]

Ok so what's the margin? What's the difference in damage % between the casters?

For now, BLM is doing 8% more dps and SMN is doing about 2-3% more for the current savage tiers.

[SaberMaxwell]

RDM actually does handle long bursts of movement far worse than BLM though especially outside of melee range. If you have to be outside of melee range RDM has functionally nothing for movement, if you are in melee range you can’t guarantee the movement will fall under a melee combo unless you force the off combo into that window (and generally if it’s a movement mechanic the melees and tanks need the melee spot)

BLM is rooted during leylines but otherwise can stack many movement tools (triple cast, sharp cast, ice paradox, swift cast etc) to get 5-8 GCD’s of constant movement at any distance from the boss

I don’t think any of the magical DPS need more movement options (about the only class that needs movement options right now is SCH) but saying RDM is more turrety and BLM is not totally untrue

Couldn't have put it better myself. There's a very real possibility that at any one moment, RDM might be the least mobile DPS caster in the game simply due to the above-outlined explanations. As a general rule, RDM's movement tools are easy to use--even the trick where you cast acceleration and bank it behind a dualcast for some extra/delayed movement--but BLM's tools are more useful and in-depth. In a savage setting assuming both know their tools, a BLM is able to move when it counts, in simpler terms.

That being said, I don't want more movement tools on RDM. I like things the way they are because 80% of the fun of the fight for me is plotting when I can bum that melee combo for movement, if there's a way to squeeze in to the melee pile while moving through weird mechanics, where I need accel/swift, if I need swift in the next minute or if I can just slap it in for a potency gain, etc. SMN needs that casting gameplay back too, not just to make it equal with the other casters but to also give it that sense of being a caster back.

If you look at the Proto-Carbuncle DPS rankings, RDM is coming in at rock bottom. Below the bard, dancer, and machinist, with Summoner likewise coming under Machinist. It's been hovering in the number 2 spot for worst next to MCH since Asphodelos Savage. I'm no math wizard, I just hit the RDM spell buttons goodly, but I don't think RDM should necessarily be that low on the totem pole.

[SilverSkyway]

Darn. RdM not number one. Make every dps do the same damage and rotation. There, now no one can complain there class and job not in the top.

If your team doesn't want take you because of some graph number then find a new team that will and doesn't care about the %.

[Tamaerl]

I think it's just that when statics are faced with encounters where a single death will likely end up with them wiping regardless of whether that person gets revived, they'll opt to switch out the summoner and/or red mage with a more focused dps job. Perhaps the main problem red mage faces with savage is that it's main purpose is to be a cushion meant to help recover from mistakes. If group is going for a zero death run with maximum efficiency, it's probably better to swap out the red mage for something like black mage. This problem isn't exclusive to red mage but is shared among support oriented dps jobs in general.

[Atmaweapon510]

The problem seems to be that the gulf between melee and caster dps is getting wider, partly due to the auto-crit changes since more melee had them, but scaling seems to be an issue. Right now non-BLM casters are suffering from the one-two punch of most melee getting buffed ahead of them by the auto-crit as well as getting saddled with Spellspeed on gear. The gulf between top and bottom dps can reach a 10% difference which is far too high. Ideally I'd like for a 6% gap (allowing about a .5% difference between each job) but 7-8% at least makes it so that bringing the lowest performing job purely for party composition bonus is better than forgoing it for another top tier dps.

Physical ranged with the exception of Machinist seem to be scaling fine. Right now, MCH, RDM, and SMN some help. RDM and SMN need the same potency buffs that RPR got to keep them afloat amidst the auto-crit change. MCH could use flat potency buffs but really just needs a rework so that the low skill floor also isn't so close to its ceiling.

[Mithron]

Wow I just checked and yeah, RDM is actually at the bottom on almost every single fight this patch. I understand they have amazing utility but I think it should be like this:

BLM > SAM > MCH > RPR > MNK > SMN > DRG > NIN > RDM > BRD > DNC > DRK > GNB > WAR > PLD > SGE > WHM > SCH > AST

This is in terms of how much utility each job brings. I'd rather for tanks it be WAR > GNB > DRK > PLD and DRK have way more utility/healing while WAR having far less, but that's just me.

[Payotz]

Wow I just checked and yeah, RDM is actually at the bottom on almost every single fight this patch. I understand they have amazing utility but I think it should be like this:

BLM > SAM > MCH > RPR > MNK > SMN > DRG > NIN > RDM > BRD > DNC > DRK > GNB > WAR > PLD > SGE > WHM > SCH > AST

This is in terms of how much utility each job brings. I'd rather for tanks it be WAR > GNB > DRK > PLD and DRK have way more utility/healing while WAR having far less, but that's just me.

MCH should never, EVER be above any of the melees precisely because it literally has unlimited movement, and unlimited uptime. It would literally kill every melee except SAM just because it's a "selfish dps".
Dev team should actually go ahead and add utility to MCH since they're already taxing the job to begin with. Turn phys ranged back into support dps, and not baby's first dps role.

[Mithron]

MCH should never, EVER be above any of the melees precisely because it literally has unlimited movement, and unlimited uptime. It would literally kill every melee except SAM just because it's a "selfish dps".
Dev team should actually go ahead and add utility to MCH since they're already taxing the job to begin with. Turn phys ranged back into support dps, and not baby's first dps role.

I mean I agree, but currently they're just a worthless job with no utility and worse DPS than melee who have utility so no reason to ever bring one over a melee or a support DPS. If they stay in that current state, they must be treated as a selfish DPS with the DPS to match it, regardless of range or mobility.